Society

[Sharjeel]

Rocky and Me had a conversation on Yahoo the day before yesterday, and we thought that it would make a good topic for FH.



sherrymirza: saala dull boring life.....

rock_26iin: true truw

rock_26iin: true*

sherrymirza: hmm
sherrymirza: even ur typos are boring

rock_26iin: very



sherrymirza: tell u what
sherrymirza: y dont u slit ur wrists

sherrymirza: make a very small incision

rock_26iin: kaiku

sherrymirza: ull die slowly. time pass hoga

rock_26iin: i hate doing that! My philosophy is why do u want to hurt ureself to remove ure anger of someone else

sherrymirza: hmm

rock_26iin: it really doesnt make sense

sherrymirza: then slit some1 elses wrist
sherrymirza: hehe
sherrymirza: mazaak kar raha tha
sherrymirza: sach bolte ho tum



rock_26iin: when my friend told me that some frend of his' g/f cut slit her wrists for some guy that was the 1st thing i said

sherrymirza: rite. i mean nobody is as imoortant us urself

rock_26iin: seriously yaar, i believe that if u like something, do it, to hell with what society thinks abt it

sherrymirza: yes. but u shud like it nice enuff, otherwise society can be very cruel

rock_26iin: its ure life, do what u wanna do
rock_26iin: who cares wht someone else thinks as long as u enjoy it

sherrymirza: haan
sherrymirza: but u cant live with ridicule
sherrymirza: let me tell u. i have enuff practical exp.

rock_26iin: how do u decide what is right and wrong?
rock_26iin: who is society to decide it 4 u?

sherrymirza: are baba. but u are a part of society

rock_26iin: can society tell abt ure personal prblms? can it rectify them?
rock_26iin: NO

sherrymirza: you can ignore it until a point

rock_26iin: it can only impose bans on ure life

sherrymirza: haan
sherrymirza: but most often they are right



rock_26iin: im sorry but this is something i feel very strongly about

sherrymirza: haan i also feel the same
sherrymirza: but in my mind, symbiosis is just as imprtant
sherrymirza: we can all rebel, but their is a thing know as subtlety
sherrymirza: and manipulation

rock_26iin: im sorry to say this, but i hate manipulators, if u have something to say, say it, dont shut up and expect ppl to understand
rock_26iin: i dont say that society is completely wrong
rock_26iin: but it is the prejuidice. of corz society regualtes certain things but then again it shudn't tell u how to live ure life
rock_26iin: its only supposed to guide u, not impose on u

sherrymirza: haan yaar, but you cannot always have your way in black and white

rock_26iin: thts wht so effed up abt the world

sherrymirza: haan it is

rock_26iin: too many shades of gray

sherrymirza: and we live in it. so we have to manipulate
sherrymirza: use people and conditions to our advantage



rock_26iin: that is something i am not able to comprehend

sherrymirza: actually sometimes we think too radically

rock_26iin: there is the good and the bad, there is the sacred and the profane, i dont mean live like a sage but i dont even know where to draw the line

sherrymirza: too true
sherrymirza: but you cannot break your way across a million yr old tradition.
sherrymirza: you have to go around it

rock_26iin: everytime some1 does something remotely radical, the words of culture and tradition are thrown at him

sherrymirza: haan

rock_26iin: when live is to evolve why do we stay with old things, why arent we still on 4 legs?

sherrymirza: lol
sherrymirza: because things work in some times
sherrymirza: and dont in others



rock_26iin: how come we have reached the stars, created things that can make us talk even when we are miles apaer
rock_26iin: remember, even Galileo was murdered for going against tradition
rock_26iin: Socrates, Darwin
rock_26iin: they were ridiculed and today they are considered greats
rock_26iin: so really who knows what is correct and what is incorrect
rock_26iin: ? who can really say?

sherrymirza: yes dear

sherrymirza: but people need to believe in something which has been proved right time after time
sherrymirza: like arranged marraiges

rock_26iin: ppl change, times change but society does not accept these changes

sherrymirza: and failure of inter caste marraige

rock_26iin: well, the AM and LM debate can go on 4ever

sherrymirza: hau!

rock_26iin: statistics do not prove anything

sherrymirza: they do
sherrymirza: otherwise they wudnt have been there

rock_26iin: you really do not know what the prevailing conditions were and wht each's state of mind and temperment and nature

sherrymirza: which is why
sherrymirza: u must be cunning enuff to have ur way

rock_26iin: there are so many other factors that statistics can only be suggestive but not complete to base ure entire info on one result

sherrymirza: haan, but they do point in the ritght direction

rock_26iin: thts why i say, the LM and AM debate cant really b resolved by us witnessing it from the third person's view

sherrymirza: but in my family there have been 4 LM
sherrymirza: and 2 intercaste ones
sherrymirza: so i have a good enuff idea

rock_26iin: hmm

sherrymirza: hey. make a generic tyope thhread in FH on society
sherrymirza: not on LM or anything

rock_26iin: you do it and ill just comment
rock_26iin: or u can put up this convo in the thread

sherrymirza: haan. i will

rock_26iin: and to think this entire convo started with a joke abt slitting my wrists, weird are the ways of the art of conversation

sherrymirza: hau yaar
sherrymirza: remind me never to say that again
sherrymirza: saale tuune mera dimaagh kha liya
sherrymirza: ill have to sleep extra 2 hrs now

...



For anyone who does'nt know, Rocky is 16 years old...



Well, just keep the converaation going, and add your comments...

[akhilis2cool]

The spped at which soiety accepts changes in traditions/beliefs/ is < the speed at which an individual wld. accept them.

[lizard king]

nothng was tradition until sosme one srarted it man.

n hey, well, if u guys have ben talking about society and changes in it, ours probably has been the fastest evolving society, all the way from the vedic people to the pop culture....just in a span of about 6000 or 7000 years. the chinese have been the same for 1000 s opf years, the west has been more or less stuck to the church and is very arrogant to change, african society has seen development only foir th past couple of centuries.

but the indian society, it blended in , mixed and we are a result, and a the fore runners of change. change/revolution is in our blood

[rock_26iin]

The spped at which soiety accepts changes in traditions/beliefs/ is < the speed at which an individual wld. accept them.

I agree, the society cannot accept these changes but if there is mutual consent from the parties involved then i feel that society really has no right to butt into these matters.

[lizard king]

The spped at which soiety accepts changes in traditions/beliefs/ is < the speed at which an individual wld. accept them.

I agree, the society cannot accept these changes but if there is mutual consent from the parties involved then i feel that society really has no right to butt into these matters.

lest we forget that it is the individuals whioch make a society, not rocks and pillars. and we dont really live in a place where we rules and changes are forced upon us.

[rock_26iin]

The spped at which soiety accepts changes in traditions/beliefs/ is < the speed at which an individual wld. accept them.

I agree, the society cannot accept these changes but if there is mutual consent from the parties involved then i feel that society really has no right to butt into these matters.

lest we forget that it is the individuals whioch make a society, not rocks and pillars. and we dont really live in a place where we rules and changes are forced upon us.

actually, society so-to-speak are the elders within a community, they were taught certain things and feel it right to teach it to the younger generations. Although I am not saying that they are completely wrong, my personal view is that their times and our times are different so the rules which applied to them may not necessarily work with us and when we go against these so-called rules, we are ridiculed as heretics. So in my opinion, you should do what you want to do.

[enigma]

Society does set certain established norms and people are expected to follow them.I agree that our background and circumstances may have influenced who we are, but we are responsible for who we become and its we who eventually constitute society. We are an integral part of society and this fact cannot be denied.



Unless we lock ourselves in our room all day, every day, we will come into contact with people. There is no point in being grumpy all day and criticizing people and society as a whole. Get used to it. People will be a part of your life forever whether you like it or not, and it just seems to make more sense to accept the fact . If possible we should form our own society around us which would comprise of people having a similar mindset and who share similar thoughts.



We are not machines so that we can be programmed in a certain way that we have to behave in a given situation. We all are different, some are analytical thinkers others are drifters.



What we need to remember is that life can only be lived once, and while we're here, we need to make the best of it."Just stop and smell the roses."Enjoy life being a part of society but live it on your own terms because eventually its your life.

[CtrlAltDel]

my opinion's similar to enigma's, but i draw a line at how much society can interfere in my life. as long as the "society" just proffers opinions, its fine...but once its starts saying "u HAVE to do this...." it can very well kiss my a$$.



humans are not there bcoz of society, but its the other way round. never let "society" become your master and dictate your life.



be a rebel...its fun and after a few years u will be called a path breaker or a pioneer!





and Sherry-bhai...just open the newspapers daily...u'll find atleast 2 news items of arranged marriages failing or ending violently. its really childish to say the traditional arranged marriages are always successful and love marriages end in failure. look beyond your family at the world. remember no traditionalist talks about failed arranged marriages and successful love marriages. they choose to ignore anything that proves them wrong.

[Sharjeel]

and Sherry-bhai...just open the newspapers daily...u'll find atleast 2 news items of arranged marriages failing or ending violently. its really childish to say the traditional arranged marriages are always successful and love marriages end in failure. look beyond your family at the world. remember no traditionalist talks about failed arranged marriages and successful love marriages. they choose to ignore anything that proves them wrong.

If you view the amount of arranged marraiges that take place, then look at their success rate, then look at the amount of love marraiges and then their success rate, you will notice that arranged marraiges are very steady...



What about the idiots who keep falling in love with every other person?

[rock_26iin]

If you view the amount of arranged marraiges that take place, then look at their success rate, then look at the amount of love marraiges and then their success rate, you will notice that arranged marraiges are very steady...

Sharjeel bhai, I will say it again, we have no clue to the conditions that were prevailing. Most LMs fail because of the narrow minded attitude of people. They create prejuidice and therefore ppl are apprehensive of LMs. Many LMs break up due to peer pressure which again is created due to this prejudice

What about the idiots who keep falling in love with every other person?

theres a question ive asked b4 also, and i think i can ask it again here



"How do you know that you have fallen in love with the one?"

[Kavita]

[quote="rock_26iin]



"How do you know that you have fallen in love with the one?"[/quote]



If a person is mature enough, he/she would definitely know what they are and what they would be looking for in a person they want to marry apart from the crazy feelings one goes thru. I personally feel the one must match both the criteria mentioned.



Apart from this people keep changing with time, some dont change much while others change drastically. So even if you have zeroed in on that person, there is no gaurantee that you will have the same emotions for that person for ever. So its not only how much you love the other person but its also how much you can adapt to that person and still be in love with that person.



I hope I am making some sense.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

and Sherry-bhai...just open the newspapers daily...u'll find atleast 2 news items of arranged marriages failing or ending violently. its really childish to say the traditional arranged marriages are always successful and love marriages end in failure. look beyond your family at the world. remember no traditionalist talks about failed arranged marriages and successful love marriages. they choose to ignore anything that proves them wrong.

If you view the amount of arranged marraiges that take place, then look at their success rate, then look at the amount of love marraiges and then their success rate, you will notice that arranged marraiges are very steady...

While looking at the percentages, it would be fair to also look at the way dialogue is shunned in conservative Indian households and what percentage of arranged marriages end up in discontented lives for both partners. Socially a success, but look at them behind closed doors and you'll know the truth.

What about the idiots who keep falling in love with every other person?

They miss out on every other person.







Talking of society interfering in my life, for me, my society consists of the people who matter to me and the people to whom I matter; rather than a bunch of oldies who know nothing about my thoughts, my visions, my ambitions, my principles and my past, present and future. And I'm open to the involvement of society in my life - the society as I percieve it.

[CtrlAltDel]

If you view the amount of arranged marraiges that take place, then look at their success rate, then look at the amount of love marraiges and then their success rate, you will notice that arranged marraiges are very steady...

thats simply coz there are more arranged marriages in india, than LMs...the married couple staying together for the sake of society is not sign of a successful marriage...as HP said look inside closed doors...there is 50-50 chance of finding anger, conflict and violence.
speaking of success rate, how many unsuccessful LMs have u seen, vis a vis the successful ones...? like i said u may not be aware of successful ones coz elders dont like to talk about them since they consider them "bad examples". all it takes is one love marriage to fail and they go all over town saying thats what happens to love marriages.
if u read Indian Express newspaper, once a week they write an article on any one "cross-cultural" (read inter-caste/religion love marriage) couple in hyderabad. they have been writing this since approx past 3 years...so imagine how many are there and how successful they are.

What about the idiots who keep falling in love with every other person?

as long as they are not married, whats wrong? whats idiotic about falling in and out of love...?

[mark]

in my view, society represents a safety net.

within a society, you have rights and responsibilities. if you shoulder your responsibilities, you have your rights. if you choose to fit in with society, it should help you in times of trouble, just as you help others in society in their time of need.

if you choose not to fit in with it, then you have no recourse to the help that society provides.



So i view it as help which is either there, or lacking. unfortunately, if someone feels that they cannot live to societies rules, and vow to have no part in it, most societies with actually hinder the person in their lifestyle, rather than just providing no help.



for my society is far too insecure. actually the same applies for most religions. If the people behind these social structures are so sure that what they are doing is for the best, why are they so worried about the few people that live outside these structures? If you're so confident that love marrages are not as effective as arranged marrages, why do you feel the need to defend arranged marrages?

[akhilis2cool]

Being a rebel is very important. else the people will never change.

a society without changes will stagnate and end.



thats why the differences betwen the younguns and the elders need to discussed, both the sides will benifit from it and as a result the society they live in becomes progressive.

[rock_26iin]

Something that I feel is required in this thread:

In India, the highest grade in school is 10 which we finish at age 16. Here we are "allowed" to choose our subjects of interests which will help us on our way to becoming what we want. Unfortunately for us there are only 2 options BPC and MPC (basically courses to make us doctors or engineers).
This lack is not a fault of the colleges but of this society wherein we are ridiculed for choosing economics so you can forget about arts. The class, money conscious society that is the true face of urban India is changing though, but even now a person's choice of becoming an actor, artist, accountant, lawyer, athlete (basically anything outside of a doctor and engineer) will be met by more "brickbats" than "bouquets".
Hence even if our true interests lie somewhere else, we swallow our desire and join into colleges which train us to become engineers since these are secure jobs and honorable jobs. Hence the sellout

Another instance where "society" meddles in the lives of the younger generations

[Mayavi Morpheus]

I dont agree with Jasz there. I agree with what he is saying (lack of choice et al.) but the soceity is *not* to blame for this.

Those are the concious economic choices we make and society doesnt play any role in that.

Will post later.

[Jaszalcatraz]

I agree with what he is saying (lack of choice et al.) but the soceity is *not* to blame for this.
Those are the concious economic choices we make and society doesnt play any role in that.

We make these choices because "society" (directly or indirectly) is responsible for the lack of choices available for us. Name one good film school, art school, music school.

Ok. Lets leave out arts. What about Psychology, Political Sciences, Law.

How come we dont know anybody in our age group who've chosen one of those? How come we know only people who've done Engineering or commerce?

If my society (my immediate family, relative, well-wishers) supported me I would rather struggle for a few years in a field that may not pay well but keeps me satisfied.

What really happens is that from the moment we leave school, we are told to look up in awe at some of our settled cousins and uncles who, at the age of 25, has a car, is married and is expecting his first born. The pressure to "settle down" is so heavy on us that we have to choose the easy way out. If not our parents threaten us by refusing to pay for our education et al.

With the odds stacked so high against us, we have to live their dream

[lizard king]

I agree with what he is saying (lack of choice et al.) but the soceity is *not* to blame for this.
Those are the concious economic choices we make and society doesnt play any role in that.

We make these choices because "society" (directly or indirectly) is responsible for the lack of choices available for us. Name one good film school, art school, music school.
Ok. Lets leave out arts. What about Psychology, Political Sciences, Law.
How come we dont know anybody in our age group who've chosen one of those? How come we know only people who've done Engineering or commerce?
If my society (my immediate family, relative, well-wishers) supported me I would rather struggle for a few years in a field that may not pay well but keeps me satisfied.

I dont agree with Jasz as here. U had a choice to oot for whatever u want. And i dont think u can blame the society for ur insecurity. ya... more of this once i get back home.

[labelle]

I agree with what he is saying (lack of choice et al.) but the soceity is *not* to blame for this.
Those are the concious economic choices we make and society doesnt play any role in that.

We make these choices because "society" (directly or indirectly) is responsible for the lack of choices available for us. Name one good film school, art school, music school.
Ok. Lets leave out arts. What about Psychology, Political Sciences, Law.
How come we dont know anybody in our age group who've chosen one of those? How come we know only people who've done Engineering or commerce?
If my society (my immediate family, relative, well-wishers) supported me I would rather struggle for a few years in a field that may not pay well but keeps me satisfied.
What really happens is that from the moment we leave school, we are told to look up in awe at some of our settled cousins and uncles who, at the age of 25, has a car, is married and is expecting his first born. The pressure to "settle down" is so heavy on us that we have to choose the easy way out. If not our parents threaten us by refusing to pay for our education et al.
With the odds stacked so high against us, we have to live their dream

i do agree with what u say but don't you think that we at some point or the other are hypocritic the main problem is "we" do not try to change and accept things as it is at first we tend to rebel and we see that we are all alone in this crusade we take back the steps which we have taken. i must say that it take a lot of guts to go against the society and make ur own way bcoz the whole world or so called hypocritic society is against u.verybody is there looking at ur actions under the microscope.

[Sharjeel]

verybody is there looking at ur actions under the microscope.

yes they are. It is our choice to live in a society...



It is more a case of having a few loosely worded rules about morality and stuff...