Indoctrination Greatest threat...

[DQ]

Indoctrination and Fanatism greatest Threat to Mankind



http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/12/india11319.htm





After Lal Krishna Advani’s trip to Pakistan and his praise for Muhammad Ali Jinnah, there has been a great deal of discussion in the media about disagreements between the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), and the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). Both Atal Behari Vajpayee and Advani have been roundly abused by Hindutva hardliners for various slights to the Hindu cause. The BJP is apparently not "Hindu enough" for the VHP and the RSS.



It is time for the RSS to take responsibility. The organisation should clearly — and publicly — tell its supporters that bullying, murder and rape are not acceptable. The BJP and its allies also need to send out an unequivocal message of opposition to threats and violence.





This family quarrel would matter more if something radical was on the anvil. Something shockingly nice. What if the BJP government in Gujarat, furious at all this insulting of its national leaders, decided to withdraw its protection of the RSS, VHP, and Bajrang Dal goons that raped and killed during the 2002 riots. Imagine all those cases properly investigated and prosecuted. Imagine the guilty punished. Now that is radical. But it isn’t happening.





What is happening is a struggle in the religious right to determine what is "Hindu enough" in public life. Perhaps the RSS should issue a set of standards. But would those standards include a ban on rape and murder of their opponents? Prosecution for those who commit such acts? Thus far, neither the RSS nor any of its numerous subsidiaries has agreed that they might be accountable for inciting, if not actively encouraging, Dara Singh and his buddies who burnt two small boys to death. Or the men that chose to rape nuns. Or, in fact, those who planned and carried out the orgy of murderous vengeance in Gujarat.





What happened in Orissa on June 14, 2005 is a good test case. The Indian People’s Tribunal on Environment and Human Rights (IPT) was investigating the rise of violent sectarianism in Orissa. The state has witnessed a tremendous rise in sectarian violence, which has been blamed on extremist Hindu groups. For example, Australian missionary Graham Staines and his two sons were killed in January 1999; in March 2002, VHP and Bajrang Dal activists, ostensibly annoyed at criticism from some legislators, attacked the state’s Assembly; in February 2004 seven Christian women were beaten up and tonsured in Kilipal village of Jagatsinghpur district to forcibly reconvert them to Hinduism; and in August 2004 Hindu extremists stormed a church in Raikia town, burnt Bibles, and destroyed church property. One group claiming inspiration from the RSS, even claimed it was setting up Hindu suicide-bomb squads. Yet the state government of Orissa — ruled by an ally of the BJP — has been unwilling or unable to respond adequately to ensure the security of its vulnerable communities.





The IPT enquiry was led by two retired judges, Justice K.K. Usha and Justice R.A. Mehta, and convened by lawyer Mihir Desai of IPT and Angana Chatterji, who teaches at the US-based California Institute of Integral Studies. Other members included Lalita Missal, National Alliance of Women, Orissa chapter; Chetan Bhatt of the University of London; Asha Hans of Utkal University; Shaheen Nilofer and Sudhir Patnaik, scholar-activists from Orissa, and Ram Puniyani of Ekta, the Committee for Communal Harmony. The team’s investigation was transparent. It visited various parts of the state to gather testimonies, primarily from affected tribal, Dalit and minority communities.





In an effort to understand the views of the Hindu extremist groups, on June 14 the IPT invited representatives of the BJP, RSS and Bajrang Dal to participate in the hearings. Ramachandra Behera, a journalist and a supporter of the Bajrang Dal, deposed before the tribunal, as did some other known VHP and RSS supporters. Even as the depositions were going on, however, the VHP hand-delivered a letter signed by the state’s organising secretary, alleging that the IPT was made up of "leftists" and "Hindu-baiters." It claimed, falsely, simply because one of the convenors is a US resident, that the IPT was supported through foreign funds raised from sources attempting to destabilise the country.







What followed should really worry the RSS if it believes in the moral standards it proclaims. Soon after the letter was delivered, those representing the Hindu groups at the hearing threatened tribunal members and IPT staff, many of them women. They threatened rape and public stripping. They took photographs of tribunal convenor Chatterji, saying "we will make sure everybody knows your face." One of the women witnesses described the scene: "The intensity and verbal violence deployed by the Sangh activists was fearsome. They surrounded us and their tone became more and more menacing and their actions more abusive."





Has the threat of rape become an accepted RSS weapon? Is this what the RSS wants? When the tribunal members asked about RSS ideology and its purported respect for women, they were told that such protection was reserved only for "proper women." Does the category of "proper women" include senior and respected judges?



Angana Chatterji, who stayed in Orissa after the tribunal hearings, continued to receive anonymous hostile phone calls that talked ominously of rape. Because of her research and writings on communalism in Orissa, she has been particularly targeted. Instead of repudiating these threats, Bajrang Dal leader Subash Chouhan told journalists at a press conference that his group and the VHP would not allow Chatterji to continue her research. Does Chouhan believe in freedom of expression?



Such behaviour should no longer be tolerated. The government of India and the state government of Orissa should immediately prosecute and punish those responsible for making these threats and inciting violence. They should launch public awareness campaigns making it clear that those who organise such campaigns will be prosecuted for incitement to violence and those who follow the orders of extremist groups will face the full force of the law.



There is no time to wait. What is happening in Orissa, including the distribution of tridents and indoctrination of youngsters to oppose Christian missionaries working in the area, could create the same kind of environment as in Gujarat. A spark, such as the train attack in Godhra, could again lead to waves of violence that engulf whole communities.



The government of Orissa has to be more alert to prevent these groups from propagating religious hatred. The National Human Rights Commission has called for an immediate investigation into the incident. The National Commission for Women should also respond.



But this alone cannot contain the danger. RSS supporters in Orissa who threatened the IPT believed that they could get away with it because they have gotten away with worse in Gujarat and elsewhere. They have to be made to understand that in the future this will not be so.



It is time for the RSS to take responsibility. The organisation should clearly — and publicly — tell its supporters that bullying, murder and rape are not acceptable. The BJP and its allies also need to send out an unequivocal message of opposition to threats and violence.



We have all seen that encouraging violence for short-term political gain, sooner or later can cause great harm. The Sangh and its subsidiaries should take heed. After the Gujarat riots, VHP leader Praveen Togadia said that it was difficult to control Hindu wrath. But those that incite have to take responsibility. Responsibility for criminal acts, whatever the justification, is the basis of the rule of law. It is not acceptable to dismiss mass rape and murder as a "reaction" to provocations.



Punishing foot-soldiers for "excesses" would be a start, but it is not enough. The leaders of vigilante groups, the people responsible for indoctrination, training and handing out orders, should also be held to account. The RSS and its many affiliated organisations, including its political face, the BJP, must begin by firmly disciplining their colleagues and supporters in Orissa. Some in these factions have been speaking out, whether it is to deplore Gujarat or encourage peace with Pakistan. It is time to listen to those voices.

[Red Combat]

another pageload of that thing I said in the other thread.

[CtrlAltDel]

yes D'Que, i agree with this article

[akhilis2cool]

What happened in Orissa on June 14, 2005 is a good test case. The Indian People’s Tribunal on Environment and Human Rights (IPT) was investigating the rise of violent sectarianism in Orissa. The state has witnessed a tremendous rise in sectarian violence, which has been blamed on extremist Hindu groups. For example, Australian missionary Graham Staines and his two sons were killed in January 1999; in March 2002, VHP and Bajrang Dal activists, ostensibly annoyed at criticism from some legislators, attacked the state’s Assembly; in February 2004 seven Christian women were beaten up and tonsured in Kilipal village of Jagatsinghpur district to forcibly reconvert them to Hinduism; and in August 2004 Hindu extremists stormed a church in Raikia town, burnt Bibles, and destroyed church property. One group claiming inspiration from the RSS, even claimed it was setting up Hindu suicide-bomb squads. Yet the state government of Orissa — ruled by an ally of the BJP — has been unwilling or unable to respond adequately to ensure the security of its vulnerable communities.

can someone please tell me wht happened on jun14, 2005

[Mayavi Morpheus]

The IPT enquiry was led by two retired judges, Justice K.K. Usha and Justice R.A. Mehta, and convened by lawyer Mihir Desai of IPT and Angana Chatterji

Google for her.

[CtrlAltDel]

The IPT enquiry was led by two retired judges, Justice K.K. Usha and Justice R.A. Mehta, and convened by lawyer Mihir Desai of IPT and Angana Chatterji

Google for her.

:? whats yr point? i did google for her n got lots of info...

[akhilis2cool]

The IPT enquiry was led by two retired judges, Justice K.K. Usha and Justice R.A. Mehta, and convened by lawyer Mihir Desai of IPT and Angana Chatterji

Google for her.

:? whats yr point? i did google for her n got lots of info...

her articles/work seem to b focussing on the evils of Hinduism/Hindus only...

[CtrlAltDel]

The IPT enquiry was led by two retired judges, Justice K.K. Usha and Justice R.A. Mehta, and convened by lawyer Mihir Desai of IPT and Angana Chatterji

Google for her.

:? whats yr point? i did google for her n got lots of info...

her articles/work seem to b focussing on the evils of Hinduism/Hindus only...

oh...that type! i didnt open the links...now, i think i shud...

[DQ]

A typical desi adultrated mind set, we dont concur with something...oh the writer is a anti hindu writer, does this mean this will down paly all what happened.



Lets revisit Gujrat event by event, is this the type of India MM and his likes talk about when they talk about nationlism.



The Ahmedabad Massacres:



Naroda Patia and Gulmarg Society



Naroda Patia and Gulmarg Society were the site of two of the deadliest massacres in Ahmedabad. Human Rights Watch visited both sites and interviewed numerous eyewitnesses to the attacks who have since been residing in relief camps. Some of their testimony is included below.



Naroda Patia

Located just across the road from the State Reserve Police (SRP) quarters, Naroda Patia was the site of some of the most brutal attacks in Ahmedabad. On February 28 at least sixty-five people were killed by a 5,000-strong mob that torched the entire locality within minutes. Countless others sustained severe burns and other injuries.



Women and girls were gang-raped in public view before being hacked and burned to death.



Homes were looted and burned while the community mosque, the Noorani Masjid, was destroyed using exploding gas cylinders. Extensive use and access to Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) cylinders has also been cited as evidence of official collusion.24



Naroda Patia used to be a mixed community of Hindus and Muslims. The nearly one thousand Muslims were in a minority and lived in a slum facing the state transport workshop.25 Most surviving Muslim residents are now scattered in relief camps.



In the days that followed February 28, hundreds of youths brandishing swords, daggers, axes, and iron rods were seen shouting "Jai Shri Ram" and roaming roads lined with gutted shops and littered with burned trucks, rickshaws, and other vehicles.26



Human Rights Watch visited Naroda Patia three weeks after the attacks. The Muslim homes were completely burned while the Hindu homes stood unscathed. The area's mosque, the Noorani Masjid, just across the road from the SRP post, had also been destroyed. According to one human rights activist who visited the site of the burned mosque soon after the attacks, at least sixteen gas cylinders, used as explosive devices, remained inside the mosque.27



A thirteen-year-old boy described the role of the police during the attack:



The police was with them.

The police killed seventeen- and eighteen-year-olds. The mob also burned down our home. At 10 a.m. they went after our mosque. Thirty to forty tear gas shells were released by the police as we, about fifty boys, were trying to save the mosque.... They killed one seventeen-year-old and eight to ten other boys were injured.... We kept calling the police but no one came.... The police would pick up the phone and hang up when they heard it was from Naroda Patia.28



Another eyewitness interviewed by Human Rights Watch added: "When we tried to run, the police started firing. It was morning time. Many were hiding in Masjid Chali [lane]. We came here [to the camp] early on the morning of March 2."29



Fifty-five-year-old Salima Banu, a resident of Naroda Patia was a witness as her son was shot and killed by the police:



My son was running to save his life and the police shot him. Our home was behind Noorani Masjid. They were coming to set the mosque on fire. Then we started running. A bullet hit my son's arm and then his stomach. No one was answering the police phone. The police took their side and not ours. My son's name was Shafiq. He was eighteen years old... No one came to help. He was suffering so much. His arm fell off. I have received nothing from the government.... So many people are also missing. Some have lost their mother, their son, their father.30



Samuda Bhen, a mother of two, lost all her valuables in the looting and burning on February 28 and the days that followed and identified members of the Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena, and the police as the main culprits:



They took my daughter's dowry. This is my daughter [she pointed to her]. She is seventeen. Her name is Mumtaz. She was supposed to get married. Now the groom won't come. They also burned my son's rickshaw. They burned everything after we left. During the attack they were screaming "Kill them. Cut them." We left on March 1. We stayed at home until then. The police sided with them. They were Bajrang Dal people. They were wearing saffron bandannas. There were also Shiv Sena people. First the police came, they searched the mosque, they were checking for weapons to see if it was safe for the others to come. Then the others came. The police station is right near us. The police was with them for three full days. We kept telling them to help us.31



Forty-year-old Naseem Banu told us: "Wherever we hid, the police showed them where we were. The police remained standing when our homes were burned down."32

[akhilis2cool]

A typical desi adultrated mind set, we dont concur with something...oh the writer is a anti hindu writer, does this mean this will down paly all what happened.

Is ur conclusion, that I think she's a anti-hindu writer, based on the following?

her articles/work seem to b focussing on the evils of Hinduism/Hindus only...

If yes, please tell me how it proves that.

[DQ]

The "Only" there Akhil ........



A female eyewitness told Human Rights Watch, "they raped them, cut them and then threw them in a well. They cut them with swords. Everything is gone, you won't even find dogs there."33 Samuda also witnessed the raping and killing of young girls: "They took young girls, raped them, cut them and then they burned them."34 Others simply did not have the words to describe the attack: "You won't be able to bear it if we tell you. They are scared, they won't speak, people have been asking for days what happened. What difference has it made? We don't want to go back there. Our lives are in danger there [Naroda Patia].... We won't go back to Patia; we will go anywhere else. We even left without our shoes, all our hard-earned saving are gone."35 One female resident said, "Some girls even threw themselves into the fire, so as not to get raped."36 A ten-year-old girl added, "I saw it also, they cut them down the middle."37



Testimonies collected by the Citizens' Initiative, a coalition of over twenty-five NGOs, and submitted to the National Human Rights Commission are replete with incidents of gang rapes of Muslim girls and women and the role of the police during the attacks, particularly in Naroda Patia. These testimonies are cited as transcribed by the Citizens' Initiative. A resident of Naroda Patia, Ahmedabad testified that eight out of eleven family members were killed on February 28, two after being raped. The surviving three members sustained serious injuries:



It was morning and I was cooking. My husband, my three children and I were in my house while my mother-in-law, my brother-in-law and his wife along with their three children was in the adjoining house. A mob of 5,000 came and we started running. We were cornered from all the sides. SRP (State Reserve Police) personnel were also chasing us. It was 6:30 by now in the evening. The mob caught hold of my husband and hit him on his head twice with the sword. They threw petrol in his eyes and then burned him. My sister-in-law was stripped and raped. She had a three-month baby in her lap. They threw petrol on her and the child from her lap was thrown in the fire. My brother-in-law was hit in the head with the sword and he died on the spot. His six-year-old daughter was also hit with the sword and thrown in the fire. My mother-in-law had with her the grandson who was four years of age and he was burnt too. We were that time hiding on the terrace of a building. My mother-in-law with her heavy body was unable to climb the stairs so she was on the ground. My mother-in-law told them to take away whatever money she had but to spare the children. They took away all the money and jewelry and burnt the children with petrol. ([My] mother-in-law was raped too). I witnessed all this. Unmarried girls from my street were stripped, raped and burnt. A 14-year-old such girl was killed by piercing an iron rod in her stomach. All this ended at 2:30 A.M. The ambulance came on the scene and I sat in it along with the bodies of my husband and children. I have injury marks on both my thighs and left hand that was caused by the police beating. My husband, my daughter and son had 48%, 95% and 15% burns respectively. Both my husband and daughter died in the hospital after three days.... The police was on the spot but helping the mob. We fell in their feet but they said they were ordered from above (not to help). Since the telephone wires were snapped we could not inform the fire brigade.38



Like hundreds of others, a resident of Naroda Patia witnessed the gang rape of girls and women. The names of the victims have been omitted to protect their privacy:



We were cooking and were informed to be in the house only as there was tension in the area. We went to the nearby society [neighborhood] and took shelter on the terrace. People from the Hindu society told us to take shelter in their houses. There were only men in there and none of the women and children. Then they told us to escape towards Naroda (an area). We requested them to allow us escape towards the SRP (colony). SRP said, "24 hours have been given to beat you up." Society (place of refuge) brought us out on the road and told us to go to Naroda. We disagreed knowing that it is a far place. So they started beating us with sticks, hockey sticks and pipes. They accused us that we had come there to riot and asked us to get out. We came out to face a big mob armed with sharp weapons, kerosene and petrol cans.... All adult males were then beaten, fallen on the ground and burnt. The residents of the gopinath society [neighborhood] segregated young girls (Muslims) and made them stand on one side. They were raped and we watched this as some of us were on the terrace.



We were 400-500 people on the terrace.... The girls were stripped and then two men held them down by legs and arms. Those who raped were 20-25 in number. The girls screamed so loud that even now when I remember my blood boils.



They [the attackers] were given twenty-four-hours time (to beat us). If we were given even two hours time we would have shown them (dealt with them). I know the face of the persons who raped. The rape started at 6:00 in the evening until 9:00 at night. The girls were then burnt. I still remember their loud screams. When Asif Khan, a 25-year-old youth pleaded SRP to let us go he was beaten up badly and he managed with difficulty to get out of their hold. We can identify the SRP men. We can also identify the residents of gopinath society.... 11 of our youth died in private gun firing





What are your comments on this CAD. Same right "Few bad appls spoil the basket......."



I am ashamed at what fellow Indians did to Fellow Indians, the Police who is paid to protect citizens first raids areas and shoots all the youth, then the goons are sent to plunder.....



MM is so keen on protesting and Nuking those who kill Women and Children.



What about this ?



The apathy is that the CM was overwhelmingly reelected....Democracy and Secular India dude. Talk about double standards.

[CtrlAltDel]

The apathy is that the CM was overwhelmingly reelected...

that was the worst thing to happen there...

[Miffed HP]

DQ....nobody on these boards has ever tried to condone or justify whatever happened in Gujarat. Infact, if you read one of my earlier threads from long ago, I've said the same thing ex-tempore that you've said using press clippings.



Moreover, the stories you're pasting here are based on events that happened almost 4 years ago. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then. Things have come back to normal. Your association with Gujarat is probably only through websites and newspapers but mine is much closer. My parents still reside there and I visit atleast twice a year. I have a lot of friends who stay in predominantly muslim areas. And yeah....talking of Naroda Patia, the people who you quote as being afraid of going back are all back.



The ground reality is that the muslim population cannot be alienated. They are an integral part of many aspects of day to day life there which cannot be ignored. And the Gujaratis, who are traditionally a business community have understood this fact and have gotten on with their lives without any religious animosity. Today, a muslim in Gujarat is not scared to move out on the roads the way he was 3 years ago. As a sidenote here, let me add that a Kashmiri pundit is still scared to go back home decades after he was displaced from there.



And why do you see the muslim population as being completely innocent? Agreed, during the 2002 massacre, they were the victims, but Gujarat has a history of communal flare-ups and both communities have borne the brunt of them. And mind you, there have been several acts by muslims in Gujarat which would elicit angry responses from any patriotic Indian. Let me tell you something that I'm sure your HRW and associates haven't. When Pakistan beats India in a cricket match, there are places in Ahmedabad (muslim ghettos ofcourse), where crackers are fired - The area where Gulmarg Society is situated is one of them. The late Ahsaan Jaafri, an ex-congress MLA distributed sweets in Gulmarg Society the day Pakistan declared the nuclear capability of its Ghaznavi missile. So there are culprits on both sides and you cannot judge one side as being completely innocent.



Finally, talking of Angana Chaterjee and Mihir Desai, I know them personally and the less said about them the better.

[akhilis2cool]

The "Only" there Akhil ........

why, isnt that true?

calling urself a 'human' rights activist is justified if u don't bring in religion in between...

from wht I have read abt her, she has earned most of her 'reputation' by criticisng/maligining only hinduism/hindu's...u tell me, is that a fair way to go abt protecting 'human rights?'

[CtrlAltDel]

When Pakistan beats India in a cricket match, there are places in Ahmedabad (muslim ghettos ofcourse), where crackers are fired - The area where Gulmarg Society is situated is one of them. The late Ahsaan Jaafri, an ex-congress MLA distributed sweets in Gulmarg Society the day Pakistan declared the nuclear capability of its Ghaznavi missile.

exactly the kind of things i was talking abt in the other thread. such activities by even a few doesnt make for good publicity for the rest of the community. the brunt of their traitors' act is borne by the normal patriotic indian muslim and he usually ends up making an extra effort to prove his righteousness, tho its not really called for by anyone.

[DQ]

To Both Miffed HP and CAD:



The exact animosity that I was trying to drive you to, but first let me address the normalcy that HP would like to talk about.



Yes Normalcy has to return thats the greatness of the great country that we are a part of HP. It has seen Mauraders and Occupiers but life has sprung back because a grat number of people are a wonderful lot.



The average Indian, regales in his festivities, enjoys sport celebrates fun. Now why then is this time and again occurences why these disturbances, it is this new found "so called" RVism that has increased the animosity. The creation of a villin to prove oneself a hero, a very simple example that both you HP and CAD claiming to be Secular minded have in this very thread erred.



The brandishing of any difference of opinion to be a pro paki. Now that Ahsan Jafri and most of his neighbours of Gulmarg Society have been brutally murdered lets now see why, ah ok HP has a solution they were Pro Paki, so we can ghero them barndishing trishuls, Throw lit Cylinders on Children. Rape and Burn women and children......

What is it exactly that you are trying to prove. One way you say HP that you have written volumes on atrocities in Gujrat and the other way you sound approving of the same atrocities because crackers were burst when Pakistan won a match???





Comming to Ahsan Jafri and his nationlism you appear to be carrying the banner of the so called RVs dude, and its an apt example how easily you can get away by questioning someones nationlism. Who are you and who gave you the right to question and ascertain someones nationlism?

Why is Modi and the Sangh parivars nationlism questioned?

Ahsan Jafri, read this.....



Geeton Se Teri Zulfon Ko

Meera Ne Sanwara



Gautam Ne Sada Di

Tujhe Nanak Ne Pukara



Khusro Ne Kai Rangon Se

Daaman Ko Nikhara



Har Dil Mein Mohabbat Ki

Ukhuwat Ki Lagan Hai



Ye Mera Watan Mera Watan

Mera Watan Hai



And the AIR Radio Interview is worth listining at this link,



http://www.visionjafri.org/





Appears like we are ever increasinly falling prey to the patriots of this so called nationilst Agenda. If this trend of Indoctrination continues we can well forsee the futures of our generations.

[CtrlAltDel]

i dodnt see HP defending or justifying the gujrat riots...where did u get that from? he was just against portraying one party as devils and the other as doodh peeta bachcha innocent...



and abt Jafri's interview, well, u must be really guillible to trust a politician's interview ever heard them spout unwholesome stuff on TV or radio?



HP lived in gujrat for years, including the riots and the earth quake. as a person who lived there and saw the horrors, he must definitely be aware of the situation...



and rooting for pakistan and not india is not just any difference of opinion. its a symbol of a deep malice and a ticking time bomb. for india, pakistan is not just any other country...it actively seeks our breakup and destruction...and rooting for them against india is treachery

[DQ]

and rooting for pakistan and not india is not just any difference of opinion. its a symbol of a deep malice and a ticking time bomb. for india, pakistan is not just any other country...it actively seeks our breakup and destruction...and rooting for them against india is treachery

And Gujrat Riots is one way of ensuring the breakup does not happen right ?



Like sending in Police to Kill the Youth and then Goons to rout Women and Children.



Exactly CAD after HP quoted that he has actually lived in Gujrat do I find it appaling when he comes back with oh its a 3 year old incident and lets get on with.



Explain one thing CAD when MM and his ilks query Pose a Ghori or Ghaznavi question to Justify Ayodhya, you stay mum.

They use incidents of the pillaging looters to question the Muslim presence in India and you (your types) stay MUM.

For trivial issues like a Cricket match you would want to stand up and question nationalism.



When RSS and its activities in Secular and Democratic India are questioned you would prefer to label it History.

Rape and Annihilation of such organisations you would want others to consider them a fringe, (as if you forgot that their combination is the only major Indian opposition party)



How is it History boss?

The then CM is still the CM.

None of the purpoters of Violence (upto and above 2000 deaths) have been bought to justice.

Crimes such as Gang Rapes and mutilation of bodies, (would amount to genocide) and nothing that our democracy is doing.

HP and his likes would want everybody to get on with life.



Nationlism true, every Indian Muslim is for it. Will give his last drop of blood for it. How much ever the so called "RVs" try to forment hate and spread their venom. It is also true that every Muslim also has a Global identity that of being a Muslim and that will be maintained.



If Nationlism demands that to be compromised it will not be. To add to that, the true definition of nationalism will never conflict with the global identity and that is why you will find overwhelmingly majority of Muslims progressive and Peace loving.



Now if you would want us to fall in line with the "So called defination of Nationlism of the Sangh parivar whose definition contains Gujrat and the opression of Dalits and other minorities at every nook and turn you will find a DQ who will not let these so called RVs aka MM and his ilks get away with their propoganda (baja)."



Jai Hind.

[Done with DQ HP]

and rooting for pakistan and not india is not just any difference of opinion. its a symbol of a deep malice and a ticking time bomb. for india, pakistan is not just any other country...it actively seeks our breakup and destruction...and rooting for them against india is treachery

And Gujrat Riots is one way of ensuring the breakup does not happen right ?

Like sending in Police to Kill the Youth and then Goons to rout Women and Children.

No...and nobody in his right mind would ever make that kind of a connection, save you. But then, you're not really in your right mind. You're in your left mind (pun intended).

Exactly CAD after HP quoted that he has actually lived in Gujrat do I find it appaling when he comes back with oh its a 3 year old incident and lets get on with.

Yes. What's wrong in asking one to stop cribbing continually about something when even the victims of that incident have gotten on with normal lives? Walk into areas of Ahmedabad and Baroda that were worst hit during 2002 and talk about the riots. You'll be welcomed with the same puzzled looks that welcomed Rip van Winkle when he got up from his sleep.

Moreover, the wheels of justice have started moving. The Supreme Court is keeping a Hawk's eye on the legal proceedings of Post Godhra cases. I just request people to have faith on the judiciary and let them do their work.

I've never said that we should forget about the issue. We should all learn from it and see to it that we don't let another Gujarat happen. The done can't be undone. And neither should it stop us from doing what has to be done just because lamenting about whats done leaves us with no time for anything else.

Explain one thing CAD when MM and his ilks query Pose a Ghori or Ghaznavi question to Justify Ayodhya, you stay mum.
They use incidents of the pillaging looters to question the Muslim presence in India and you (your types) stay MUM.

Tell me DQ....when was the last time MM did that?

For trivial issues like a Cricket match you would want to stand up and question nationalism.

That's not trivial you goof!!! Give me one good reason, even a bad reason for that matter, as to why an Indian should cheer for Pakistan on their victory over India.

When RSS and its activities in Secular and Democratic India are questioned you would prefer to label it History.
Rape and Annihilation of such organisations you would want others to consider them a fringe, (as if you forgot that their combination is the only major Indian opposition party)

Yes..It is history, isn't it? And who said we should forget history? We should learn from the past and make sure not to repeat the errors of the past. But where will crying about the past lead you DQ?

And while you meantion that exciting statistic about the NDA being the only major Indian opposition party, do you forget that it was an alliance of compulsion and it lies in shambles now? Even the BJP's fortunes are dwindling.

How is it history boss?
The then CM is still the CM.

Thats primarily because the BJP doesn't have a viable alternative in Gujarat. Thats what made it into a "Hindutva" laboratory by the Sangh Parivar. The Chief Ministereal face of the congress (the only opposition party in Gujarat) is an ex-BJP turncoat who till a decade ago was a bigger poster boy of the Sangh than even your favourite Modi. Minus Vaghela, the congress is full of senile & discredited names like Urmilaben Patel, Madhavsinh Solanki, Amarsinh Chaudhary. None of them fit to lead a party to victory. Their next generation is emptier than vaccuum.

So contrary to popular belief outside the state, Modi didn't come to power due to a wave or any such thing. He came to power because of the lack of opposition.

None of the purpoters of Violence (upto and above 2000 deaths) have been bought to justice.
Crimes such as Gang Rapes and mutilation of bodies, (would amount to genocide) and nothing that our democracy is doing.

As I mentioned above, the wheels of Justice are in motion. The Indian legal system has always been a slow one. And if you have a closer look, you'll see that cases related to Gujarat-2002 are being fast-tracked. And if you're such a big champion of those to whom Justice is being delayed, did you ever take up the cause of the Bhopal gas tragedy?

HP and his likes would want everybody to get on with life.

While I'd still want everyone else to get on with their life, I'll make a small allowance in your case. Because you need to get one before getting on with it.

Nationlism true, every Indian Muslim is for it. Will give his last drop of blood for it. How much ever the so called "RVs" try to forment hate and spread their venom. It is also true that every Muslim also has a Global identity that of being a Muslim and that will be maintained.

If Nationlism demands that to be compromised it will not be. To add to that, the true definition of nationalism will never conflict with the global identity and that is why you will find overwhelmingly majority of Muslims progressive and Peace loving.

If you feel that cheering for Pakistan on their victory over India or distributing sweets when Pakistan becomes an N-state are facets of your global identity as a muslim, I'll have no qualms in branding all true Indian muslims as traitors.

Nationalism in a secular country never clashes with one's religion. Every Indian is equally Indian irrespective of being a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, Jew, Atheist or Non-Conformist. And you, being the well informed person you are, should be knowing that our constitution says so. Even then, you brought up this point about nationailism compromising your global identity as a muslim. Now if you believe otherwise, inspite of knowing what the constitution says, tell me who's being a troublemaker.

Now if you would want us to fall in line with the "So called defination of Nationlism of the Sangh parivar whose definition contains Gujrat and the opression of Dalits and other minorities at every nook and turn you will find a DQ who will not let these so called RVs aka MM and his ilks get away with their propoganda (baja)."

That's a nice cloak for your anti-Indian loyalties DQ, but its penetrated now. Nobody forced that interpretation of Nationalism on you. Its you who picks it up every now and then and indulges in histrionics of all kinds thereafter.

Jai Hind.

Know what it means before uttering it. Such things don't look good coming from you.



Personally, I feel it beneath myself to ever discuss anything with anyone who claims to be an Indian and spews such separatist venom. This post was to help the rest read between your lines and understand the true you. And trust me, I'm not shameless like you to say that I won't respond to Mr.X or Y for some lofty ideals and then come back with your trumpet the very next day. I'm done with you.

[spamtaneous]

gawd...u guys r soo jobless

[Smart Alec HP]

gawd...u guys r soo jobless

That probably explains why your post count is one and a half times that of mine inspite of you being around less than half the time as me.

[spamtaneous]

gawd...u guys r soo jobless

That probably explains why your post count is one and a half times that of mine inspite of you being around less than half the time as me.

[CtrlAltDel]

i was absent yesterday but HP has replied very well...

but i have a few questions to DQ ona couple of his comments:

Explain one thing CAD when MM and his ilks query Pose a Ghori or Ghaznavi question to Justify Ayodhya, you stay mum.
They use incidents of the pillaging looters to question the Muslim presence in India and you (your types) stay MUM.

when did MM ever justify ayodhya or use Ghori/Ghaznavi examples to do so?

For trivial issues like a Cricket match you would want to stand up and question nationalism.

:roll: supporting pakistan when they defeat india in anything is not trivial...? why should any indian in his right sense do that other than coz of namak harami...?

How is it history boss?
The then CM is still the CM.

Thats primarily because the BJP doesn't have a viable alternative in Gujarat...[/quote]apart from that we must not forget one thing: whatever closet nazi he is Modi has proved to be an efficient and incorruptible administrator. people of gujrat are seeing an efficient administration in progress. this year, even the Rajiv Gandhi Foundation (of which Sonia Gandhi is the chairperson) have given the Best Chief Minister award to Modi and Best Administered State award to Gujrat.
for an ordinary gujrati what matters at the end of the day is good and corruption free administration. that could explain the return of Modi in gujrat, especially considering the pathetic opposition and the weak dissidence in BJP itself.
with it.

It is also true that every Muslim also has a Global identity that of being a Muslim and that will be maintained.

If Nationlism demands that to be compromised it will not be.

what does that mean? u mean those pigs cheer pakistan because of that Global Identity? doesnt it sort of justify what hotshorts said in that recently deleted thread of yrs? what the hell are u talking about man? such sentiment insults and embarrasses all indian muslims. Nationalism is more important than any global identity based on religion or any such grouping.

Jai Hind.

u better not say it...it is compromising your Global Identity...

[DQ]

No in no way will saying Jai Hind undermine my global identity.



The global identity urges me to maintain my national identity and live by it.



As opposed to the indoctrined identity that is posing a even larger threat.



The latest on the Conclave so that you stay informed !!!!





THE Akhil Bharatiya Karyakari Mandal (national executive) of the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS) held at Chitrakoot in Uttar Pradesh between October 21 and 23 passed four resolutions on national issues ranging from the situations in Kashmir and the northeastern region to caste rivalry and "minorityism". But the most important message of the meeting was not found in these resolutions. Instead, it was announced by the organisation's sarkaryavaha (general secretary) Mohan Madhukarrao Bhagwat, while interacting with the media on the last day of the conference.



The message, principally directed at the Bharatiya Janata Party, the political arm of the RSS-led Sangh Parivar, was delivered without much elaboration. It was made clear that the RSS believed that the state of affairs in the BJP was "asthir" (unsettled) and the party's "gati" (pace) in carrying out ideological and organisational reforms was "slow". The RSS was "waiting and watching" whether the party would adopt the "right direction" in future.



Adopting the right direction, it was reiterated, involved adherence to the "five principles" dictated repeatedly over the past one year to the BJP by the RSS. These principles underlined the need to uphold the primacy of Hindutva as the ideological foundation of the party, enforce ethical conduct and evolve a consultative mechanism in the party, and train cadre (read, as our swaymsevak MODI has done in Gujrat,)on these lines to strengthen the organisation. Lastly, the BJP leadership would have to be a collective one, not personality driven. The RSS, Bhagwat said, held that collective decision-making and teamwork formed the basis of a democratic system.



However, Bhagawat added that the issues relating to the BJP and its leadership and style of functioning were not specifically discussed at the Chitrakoot meet. He said that the issues had been discussed in detail at the national executive meet in Hardwar in November 2004 and the delegates did not want to discuss them over and over again.



Elucidation of his points by relating them to specific political and organisational developments in the Sangh Parivar was not the strength of Bhagwat's briefing, but its message was unambiguous. It was especially so in the context of the developments of the past several months in the Sangh Parivar, which progressively worsened the relationship between the leaderships of the RSS and the BJP.



According to a senior Sangh Parivar functionary from Uttar Pradesh, central to Bhagwat's message was the comment that issues relating to the BJP were not specifically addressed at Chitrakoot since they had been discussed threadbare at Hardwar. At Hardwar, an overwhelming majority of the national executive disapproved of the BJP's style of functioning in front of L.K. Advani, who had taken over as party president in October. The delegates were scathing in their attack of the party's functioning, especially during its six years in power leading the National Democratic Alliance (NDA).



A section of the delegates at the Hardwar meet even argued that the BJP was irredeemable and that the Sangh Parivar should form a new Hindutva party under a new leadership. This "extremist" suggestion, advanced principally by Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) leaders, was rejected by the RSS top brass. It decided to stick to the BJP as its political instrument, albeit by enforcing a rigorous course correction exercise.



The "five principles" were evolved as part of this exercise. The ideological and organisational reform plans formulated as part of this initiative involved proposals to strike at the personality cult that has developed in the BJP around its senior-most leaders, former Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee and Advani, also a former Deputy Prime Minister, by displacing them from positions of power and evolving a collective leadership of Hindutva-oriented and committed younger activists. Interestingly, the deliberations within the RSS repeatedly referred to the organisational pattern of the Communist Party of India (Marxist), where the supreme leaders of the party, including the general secretary, kept out of positions in government, as a possible model for the BJP.



The RSS put the final stamp of approval on the reform agenda at its prathinidhi sabha (national council) held in Mangalore in Karnataka in March. But despite this, no course correction happened in the BJP. On the contrary, added a VHP functionary from Gujarat, many BJP leaders including Advani challenged the exercise by clinging on to their positions. In the process, they opposed the concept of returning to the core Hindutva agenda.



It was in this context that the RSS resorted to unprecedented tactics and manoeuvres, which even took the form of castigating Advani, to impel a change of leadership. The RSS assessment in the run-up to the Chitrakoot meet was that this objective had been achieved partially with Advani's declaration to demit the BJP president's office in December.



The success, according to the Uttar Pradesh-based Sangh Parivar functionary, was "partial" for several reasons. To start with, Advani, even while announcing his decision to step down, made bold to criticise RSS interference in the BJP's day-to-day affairs. More seriously, a relatively junior leader like Uma Bharati raised accusations against top RSS functionaries and in the process engineered a revolt in the Madhya Pradesh unit of the BJP. All this, added the Sangh Parivar functionary, made the RSS top brass realise that fulfilling its organisational objectives comprehensively would take much more time. Bhagwat's comments about the slowness of reforms in the BJP and the wait and watch policy of the RSS vis-à-vis the reform process have to be seen in this background.



So, clearly, the RSS is bracing itself for a long haul in its battles to "correct the course" of the BJP. This process, according to Sangh Parivar leaders who participated in the Chitrakoot meet, would develop on several fronts. "Correcting the mistakes of BJP leaders, including those such as Uma Bharati, would be one form," said the functionary from Uttar Pradesh. He added that the RSS would make concerted efforts to boost the importance of other Sangh Parivar organisations such as the VHP, the Bharatiya Mazdoor Sangh (BMS) and the Swadeshi Jagran Manch (SJM) and downgrade the importance of the BJP leadership.



According to informed sources, the plan to give a greater role to non-BJP Sangh Parivar outfits in the overall Hindutva political and organisational spectrum would acquire concrete shape with the birth centenary celebrations of M.S. Golwalkar, the late chief of the RSS, which will begin in February 2006. The Chitrakoot meet has evolved specific "quantitative and qualitative targets" to be met by non-BJP Sangh Parivar outfits during the year-long celebrations. The qualitative targets would apparently include raising Hindutva-related social issues and issues of economy focussing on the negative impact of globalisation. The plan, according to informed sources in the Sangh Parivar, is to develop the activities of these organisations to such a level that the BJP, even the "wayward" sections of its leadership, are forced to associate with them and their programmes.



The Sangh Parivar conducted a similar operation in the late 1980s and early 1990s through the Ramjanmabhoomi movement. The movement was principally advanced by the VHP with the BJP's leaders and party organisation supporting it. Paradoxically, two of the biggest beneficiaries of that "symbiotic" arrangement were Advani and Uma Bharati, the two leaders with whom the RSS is cut up, even as it plans a similar initiative.



The new RSS plan, in the context of the experience of the Ramjanmabhoomi movement, may look good on paper but some sections in the Sangh Parivar itself are doubtful about its efficacy. According to an informed source in the Sangh Parivar, who has from time to time enjoyed the "fruits of the NDA regime", returning to the core Hindutva agenda through non-BJP organisations and getting the party to back it is easier said than done. He said: "Six years in power at the Centre has changed the personal attitudes and even the ideological perspective of many of our activists. The manoeuvres launched by Uma Bharati now or the sabotage operations her detractors unleashed when this Other Backward Class leader was chosen by this very RSS leadership last year to lead the tiranga yatra and emerge as a national figure all point towards this rather dramatic change. It remains to be seen whether such people would all fall in line with RSS strategies that easily."



Despite the prevalence of such scepticism, the RSS top brass is convinced that it will ultimately build a nationwide pan-Hindu socio-political constituency by advancing its core Hindutva agenda. Significantly, the first resolution passed at the Chitrakoot meet asserts the importance of "Hindu unity" and highlights the need to fight against casteism to achieve a unanimity of purpose. The Sangh Parivar leadership had, in the mid-1990s, after the demolition of the Babri Masjid and the later failure of the BJP at the hands of caste-based political forces such as the Samajwadi Party (S.P.) and the Rashtriya Janata Dal (RJD), expressed similar sentiments against castiest forces.



Obviously, the advocates of pan-Hindu identity lost out in that phase. Will the Chitrakoot meet and the Golwalkar birth centenary celebrations make a new beginning for Hindutva? The signs, to say the least, are not positive given the mounting scepticism even among sections of the Sangh Parivar. But, as is evident, the RSS top brass will battle on.

[Ugluk, The Orc]

]For trivial issues like a Cricket match you would want to stand up and question nationalism.

That's not trivial you goof!!! Give me one good reason, even a bad reason for that matter, as to why an Indian should cheer for Pakistan on their victory over India.

Reckless posts like the one made by DQ show patriotic Indian Muslims in bad light. I suggest you be a little careful while posting DQ. No true Indian would cheer for Pakistan. Go live in Pakistani soil if you want to cheer for their team.