What should we do about Kashmir???

[h2AMgeneral]

I think that with cross-border infiltration plaguing J&K, we shud get a large amt of mines and place them along the border. I know it\'s a porous border. Even if it sounds impossible, isn\'t it worth trying so that we can save innocent Indians? Think abt it... Thanx!

[Th0r]

The only solution that i can think of is blowing Pakistan up. The last we lost a golden chance to settle the Kashmir dispute was when the Shimla Summit took place. If the US has the right to go into Iraq, Afganistan, if Russia can march into Chechnya, if Israel can do the needy, why the hell can\'t we??

[:)))]

um, a good thought. a plausible one too. but lets not say we cannot afford it, afterall , we have $10 million to give to Iraq, we sure do have whatever is req. for us to take care of our own borders

[h2amgeneral]

i think that russia, since its downgrading its military, it can get us a few million mines...(they did that in afghanistan didnt they?)y not???

[dandruf]

Just keep building the military power and Pakistan will follow the rat race and collapse ...and the sponsoring of terrorism will end too... simple and straightforward.

[ananth]

Military power alone will not solve the problem. We must bleed it to death economically slowly sucking its resources. First thing to do is to shut down all water supplies by building huge dams on all important rivers ( the five that go into them- Indus, Sutlej,Ravi,Chenab and Beas I think ). Next thing to do is tighten the noose of debt. This should make it very vulnerable. Third thing is to take over their market. That way they have no more resources in their control. People will move away to other parts of the world. Unless we do this with the resolve of the Himalayas that guarded us so long, freeing kashmir as we like to call it will remain an impossible dream.

Another option is to let go of Kashmir. Take away all the money that we invested and let it go to dogs. One state cannot hold the country to ransom. What our Govt in Delhi is doing to Kashmiris is bad enough. We most likely dont get reality in the news. If they want to separate from us, we really should give them their independence. Atleast we will save all our money. What we have invested is a waste anyway. we can atleast save whatever we will have spent by 2050! Either way is rational but I think our government be it BJP or Congress do NOT have the resolve to do ANYTHING about it.
Thats my opinion.

[D]

Most of the stuff that you mentioned is not politically right! None of the parties will anyway do it. What we need to do is kick out all the present politicians/leeches into Pakistan and let them jackals deal with them. We can have fresh politicians with fresh values and some brain to deal w/ this prob.

[Shaad Aabaad]

I agree!!!!

[Shaad Aabaad]

I agree!!!

Just posting one of the news items that our media may not let it out:U.S. ally Pakistan is the new hope for international Islamist militants who see the nation as the \\

[D]

just posting a news item which i did not find in our media, YET :
U.S. ally Pakistan is the new hope for international Islamist militants who see the nation as the \"haven of choice\" because of its nuclear capability and the immunity it provides from U.S. attacks, reports the prestigious Courcy Intelligence Service today.

\"Pakistan will not be next (to be attacked by the U.S.),\" Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, the head of the banned Lashkar-e-Toiba told The Friday Times. \"Saudi Arabia and then Iran, possibly Syria will come first. Pakistan is a nuclear power, is very close to China and is a nation of jihadis.\"

Saeed emphasized that Pakistan\'s conflict with India over Kashmir should be central to the international Islamist agenda.

\"We must fight against the evil trio of America, Israel and India,\" said Saeed. \"The need for jihad against India is paramount.\"

The Courcy Intelligence Service also reports that Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf is not as firm in opposition to Islamist militancy as some U.S. analysts originally believed.

CIS cites a speech Musharraf gave to the Grand Assembly of the Tribal Jirga in Peshawar last week in which he stressed the need to build up both Pakistan\'s and the wider Muslim world\'s military and economic power before \"showing eyes to the world\" – an Urdu expression indicating hostility.

In the meantime, CIS reports, Indian intelligence sources say up to 4,500 militants are in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir waiting to cross over the Line of Control into the Indian-controlled part of the state once the snows melt.

[h2amgeneral]

screw political correctness.. i think that we r way past bothering abt political correctness after so many of our bretheren have been tortured, orphaned, raped, mutilated and/or killed. we need to fight this type of cross border terrrorism whether the US thinks that its ok or not. we cant be wussies at this level. we need to take kashmir back.

[h2amgeneral]

we cant blow it up without getting immense amt of sanctions and stuff from all the other countries... think abt the after effects.. nuclear fallout, chaos, reason and ability for even more terrorists to harass us

[h2amgeneral]

i think that we shud also get close to israel since they have so many weapons and also for the human aspect of it.. they r so much like india u kno... we can support them and theyll back us up.. probably.. they need a lot of support anywayz so they will reward us with something, if not weapons or intel.. AND PLS if u guys have any ideas abt gaining allies or fighting terrorism sponsored by Pakistan, pls post them here.. i hope some one will c them and take action....

[Nice]

Pakistani yearning for killing Indian men, women and children, especially if they are unarmed or unprotected, has only increased this summer - discussions of war are amongst us again. Here is an article that I\'d written a few months ago - is still valid today.




What is our leverage against Pakistan?

Its come down to this now – last fall, Musharraf and his cohorts were putting out bounties on the heads of Indian citizens – anything from 1 lakh to 40 lakhs depending upon who you can kill. Now, Musharraf has extended his bounty program to include women and 2 year old kids; offer valid only if said women and children are not protected by any security or police. Not having legitimate sources of income, this bounty program extends job opportunities for Pakistani youth, from employment in terrorist factories to mafia-style contract killings – constant progress, brought to you by the Islamist generals.

Unfortunately it would seem, Musharraf kills leaders, political activists, soldiers, women and children at will in India while our government seems to have no ability or perhaps even the will to protect its citizens. Pakistani minions have killed well over 800 Indians just this year, while we’ve not been able to slow them down or even make Pakistan pay for this in any form. Unlike a wrestling match, where you win or loose depending upon how well you can exploit your leverage against your opponent, India does not seem to have any leverage against Pakistan. Pakistan, on the other hand has exploited its three points of leverage against us remarkably well.

First, Pakistan turns up/down its well-entrenched, but covert proxy-war whenever it wants to. In fact, it has slowly extended this proxy war to multiple parts of India and has surely put stumbling blocks in our convoluted path towards economic power. It seeks Indian capitulation on Kashmir as a reward for slowing down its terrorism – an of course, we are considering this possibility as a strategic step towards solving Kashmir.

Second, Pakistan maintains a highly public strategy of readiness to use nuclear weapons. During any crisis, Pakistan fires its missiles or moves them around from site to site, causing panic in western governments. After all, the Americans and Russians were sophisticated enough to know about the impact of nuclear detonations; how can anybody expect these brown South Asians to know anything about the horrendous effects of nuclear war. Parleys and panicky visits follow, immediately resulting in paralyzing Indian restraint.

Finally, Musharraf has unflinching support within the conservative leadership of the United States. Some of this based upon the complete control they have over Musharraf, some based upon air-bases and oil deals in Pakistan and of course, some residuals from the cold war era. In the end, it however all comes down to Central Asian oil that Unocal (an American company that loved even the Taliban) wants access to, for which Pakistan provides an excellent path to sea. Pakistan understands this and has convinced US to overlook genocides (in Afghanistan and Bangladesh), ethnic cleansing (in Kashmir and Pakistan itself) and of course nuclear proliferation (from North Korea/China and to Syria/Saudi Arabia). Also, it does no harm to Uncle Sam to own a unruly, some what genocidal terrorist state, that will do its bidding when required, as was borne out in the war on Russians.

Unfortunately, India does not seem to have any leverage against this terrorist nation, other than to beg for assistance from the US. This is not necessary, when we can do far more than wring our hands in helplessness. So, what are India’s options – what can we do to pin down Pakistan or at least make them pay the price for threatening the lives of a billion Indians.

Fortunately, India does have some clear points of leverage against Pakistan, including:
• An economy about an eight times the size of Pakistan’s
• Pakistan lacks indigenous natural resources including water
• Pakistan’s lack of a globalized population unlike India\'s
• In general, Pakistan has a far less law-abiding population than India\'s - all of Pakistan, has the same problem that we have in Bihar (scary isn\'t it?)
• Pakistan’s steady downward trend to extreme, jihadi Islamization
• The unique ability of our political establishment to procrastinate (we’ll see the implications of this)

The question is what are the concrete steps we can take to pin down Pakistan?

First, revive the covert anti-proxy wars of the seventies and eighties that we have now shut down to gain political leverage. The least we can do is help the Bugti and Mazari clans test out the latest Indian and Chinese RPGs on Pakistani oil pipelines or perhaps against doctors in Karachi. Covert action against Pakistan is not terrorism – it is the kind of action that helped control Pakistan supported militancy in Punjab (according to B.Raman). Without this leverage, talks and political pressure cannot amount to anything, as Pakistan and even countries like Bangladesh realize that they have nothing to loose and keep killing Indians. We have used this in the past to stop attacks against us and it is time to restart this policy and reacquire this ability. The Islamist generals of Pakistan, who’ve added mafia activities to their already extensive economic arsenal of terrorism, do not understand much else other than the use of force. Do not expect them to change their policies unless their families are threatened or their vast loots are taken away.

Next, threats of war once in a while do help. Pakistan\'s economy cannot tolerate the cost of war-preparedness and neither can its stock market. Currently, its stock market is being held up US charity, but most of the liquid cash that Pakistan gets goes into defense. In fact, so blatant was this that (reported by the News) the US wanted full accounting for the second aid tranche, after Pakistan could not account for the first $600M of US aid. Pakistan cannot outspend us in defense, but it gets economically weaker every year that it spends 33% of its GDP on defense. Here’s some anecdotal evidence - Bangladesh whose economy is not much smaller than Pakistan, is reselling the 8 Mig-29s (valued at $11M each) that it bought a few years ago, since it cannot afford to maintain them; Pakistan with a similar economy, but wants to 70 new F-16s (costs $40M each). No wonder Pakistan lately has been harping on conventional parity – at present they realize that it’ll be very difficult for their economy to keep up with their defense spending.
Third, abrogate the Indus water treaty. It’s understandable that direct impact on Pakistan will not be seen for the ten years that it will take to construct appropriate dams, but visible quick construction will have a deleterious impact on the country\'s financial ratings and investment inflows. Some world criticism will happen, but supporting Pakistan with water while they kill us at will, does not make sense. At the next big attack from Pakistani terrorists, simply announce the 6 month abrogation notice as retaliation. Even reducing their water supply by 0.5% will significantly impact the Pakistani economy – remember, international agreements can be violated in national interest and with a 6 month warning (like the US did with the ABM treaty). If our politicians shake in their boots to take so public a stance on the water treaty, simply start redirecting the water covertly and then deny, deny and deny any wrong doing.

Fourth, insist on Iran, Russia and the US firms that want a Iran-India gas pipeline, that only a deep sea pipeline or a even ship based supplies will be acceptable - not a land-based one. This will cut Pakistan out of anything up to $1B in annual revenues and perhaps the only possibility of future growth. Balance, this with pressure on Bangladesh to sell natural gas and buying more gas/oil from Iraq – the same US companies that are interested in Pakistani pipeline are interested in processing natural gas in Bangladesh – so, external pressure can be brought to work here. If further bribes are needed, lure Unocal in with exploration rights in the newly found sources of natural gas off our east coast.

Fifth, leverage India\'s globalized population to project Pakistan as the source of terrorism in the world. Indians have insinuated themselves in media and the arts in many countries and can affect public opinion; we scarcely use this resource. Indians now are CEOs and are increasingly found in TV news and politics. The defeat of Cynthia Mckinney is a good example of the new Indian political power – now we need to use this same power to get rid of Senator Burton. We need to use Indian access to media and politicians to project the truth about the Pakistani government, its record of genocide in Bangladesh and Afghanistan and the support for democracy and proliferation that has led to the state of affairs in Central Asia.

Finally, the procrastination mindset of our current Indian politicians is a big asset  – let them simply do nothing about holding talks. History tells us that all militaristic dictatorships tend to self-immolate – Pakistan is no exception and it is well on its way. A civil war like situation exists within it and US law enforcement is increasingly running untethered operations in Pakistan. A few more years of this situation will do 2 things – our relative economic strength will increase, while Pakistani internal turmoil will eat away at it – a fortunate result of the lethargy of our politicos. After all, we procrastinate better than anybody else in the world – it took us 15 years to start doing something in Kashmir. Problems with Bangladesh – we’ll do something about it in the next decade. This procrastination drives the Islamists in Pakistan and Bangladesh up the wall – they finally cannot stand it any more and start doing really stupid things, like killing Americans or supporting/hiding killers of Americans and such other nonsense. Look at what Pakistan isa doing now – it restarted exchanging nukes with North Korea this March and embraced Gulbuddin Hekmatyar’s yearning to kill American soldiers in Afghanistan.

Simply buy time, through no talks, procrastination about talks or talks about planning for plans on talks – believe me, our politicians can do this better than anyone else.

What good will this do for us?

The whole goal of leverage is to strategically increase pressure on your opponents, where it hurts them most. Pakistan\'s economy is weak enough that over a period of a few years India will have overwhelming superiority in conventional and non-conventional weapons (including missile defense). A few years of spending $4B more than Pakistan on our defense industry and research will benefit our economy (in terms of arms exports), but also make the existing arms gap with Pakistan insurmountable. In 3 years from now, short raids into Pakistani territory will be very hard for them to resist or retaliate against. Also, this same economic leverage can be used more directly – consider Ukraine, which has large arms deals with Pakistan (upgrade of T-72 tanks), but is extremely nervous about future revenues. Now, Ukraine would be happy to do a multi-billion dollar deal with India, even if it means giving up its collaboration with Pakistan ( in fact the Ukrainian President was just here to drum up deals)– can we push them towards it, is the question. Don’t get me wrong – I’m not talking about sanctions; I’m talking about good business decisions that help India interests.

Second, the lack of water resources and a reduced economy will only edge Pakistan closer to breakup. We’re already seeing signs of this in the open battles between Punjab and Sindh over water. Pakistan still stands a good chance of breaking up over the next 5-7 years. The US may actually help in this – just look at how the US indirectly helped the Islamic revolution in Iran, by giving unconditional support to the Shah to a point, where the local population could not tolerate it any more. Of course, the Americans were surprised by the Iranian coup – the same could well happen in Pakistan, when the other generals get ambitious and decide to get in bed with their mullah brethren, in stead of Musharraf. The brewing battle JEI and Musharraf and Pakistani generals in general get frisky every few years; when they do, they either cause a coup or simply crash the planes carrying their commanders.

A war is never required - especially, since it will harm India\'s credit rating and economy more than Pakistan\'s. Three years from now, the odds will be so much in favor of us from geo-political, military, economic and every other angle that one can think of, that we may not even have to fight a war. Furthermore, Pakistan is doing a good enough job at self-destruction without any help from us – thank you very much; the Pakistani education system of madrassas teaches up to 60% of Pakistani youth about the joys of jihad and the science of the Koran; their religious leaders, the imams rail every Friday against infidels and preach the benefits of jihad; the government and the army between which there is longer any difference, fund the jihadi industry; the business of producing illegal guns or creating fake Indian currency are the new cottage industries and now, jihad has become one the premier employment avenues for Pakistani youth. Why not simply wait a little longer, use our leverage judiciously and watch Pakistan shoot itself in the head – Pakistan is working hard towards this and it works for us.

[Th0r]

Listen Nice..my name is Th0r..the nordic god of thunder..so it may be that sometimes..OK a LOT of times, i insist on the use of violence. Like somebody once said, There is nothing that can\'t be solved with a hard kick in the A*S

[Th0r]

dandruff...i totally agree with you. About breaking Pak\'s economic back if not every paki\'s back. My idol, hero and god Adolf Hitler called people like Pakis \"useless mouths. They serve no purpose and are just a liability to everybody. They deplete resources like food and water which are valuable to others. The best thing to do is to shoot them in the back of their heads.\" I think, seriously, that this is probably the best piece of advice ever. We need someone like Hitler at the helm of our affairs. Not just for war but for the economic development of our country too. If the current schizophrenic-idiots-who-can\'t-remember-what-they-had-for-dinner-last-night remain in power, we will come to a stage where India will not be able to rise to a superpower status. We will just be a resource mine for foriegn powers who will bleed us dry. We are on that path right now and our current \"leaders\" are leading us right into the bog. Bloody idiots.

[Samata]

Th0r, I do trust that you were being sarcastic.

[Samata]

Most of us have a very biased view of the Kashmir issue. While the Pakistani funded terrorism is evil and should be condemned in no uncertain terms, India\'s position is not very clean either. All the parties to this conflict have indulged in vile acts and the main sufferers are the people of the Valley, those who are still living there and those who are displaced and refugess. To see the Kashmir issue ad one of Islamic terrorism is simplistic and wrong. While Islamic terrorism is a component of the problem, the Indian Government is equally culpable.

\"In 1948, India imposed and won a plebiscite in the case of Junagadh, which had a Hindu majority ruled by a Muslim Ruler who acceded to Pakistan; However, in the case of Kashmir, the mirror image of Junagadh, India did not hold a plebiscite; Pakistan applied its own share of double standards by having divergent positions on Kashmir and Junagadh, insisting it get both.\"

\"In September, massacre of Muslims start in Jammu by armed bands of Hindus and Sikhs with active support from the State forces. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims flee Jammu. On 12 October, Pakistan sends telegram to Kashmir detailing the atrocities and demands an impartial inquiry; Kashmir does not deny the charges in the reply telegram and promises an inquiry which would never be carried out.\"

\"1953-54: The governments of India and Pakistan agree to appoint a Plebiscite Administrator by the end of April 1954. Abdullah procrastinates in confirming the accession of Kashmir to India. In August 1953, Abdullah is dismissed and arrested. Bakshi Ghulam Mohammed is installed in power, who then gets the accession formally ratified in 1954.\"

\"Renegade militants supported by the Indian security forces are used for extrajudicial executions of militants, besides human right activists, journalists and other civilians, and conveniently dismissed as \"intergroup rivalries\". In 1997, the Director General of Police Gurbachan Jagat acknowledges that continued services of the renegades have become counter-productive in view of their excesses. \"

India\'s claim to Kashmir is as tenuous as Pakistan\'s. Both countries have committed and are still committing atrocities on the hapless population of Kashmir. I believe that the only way to solve this issue would be to hold the long delayed plebiscite and let the Kashmiris choose their fate. Of course, arrangements would have to be made to ensure that the displaced and refugee population also go the chance to participate.

For a balanced, non-partisan coverage of the issue I recommend that you start with:

http://indiatogether.org/peace/kashmir/intro.htm

[KK]

We have to do what USA has did. \" Laton ke bhoot batoin se nahin manta\" the old proverb is true. Rest all will fall in place once we demolish all the terrorist camps and network in POK and across the border. It is a shame to a largest democracy to wait for some other country to give a OK to take action on terrorists and secure our nation.

Kashmiris are crushed between politics and terrorism. They cannot openly come out and say what they want. There will be a large backlash if we act, but ultimately the fight on terrorism must and should be supported by all like minded nations and they will do it.

[Anil]

Gosh! Its scary reading all the responses. On one hand we criticise Bush for what he did in Iraq, but at the same time we want India to emulate what he did????? If we believe Kashmir is ours, attacking it (the POK) and killing our own people doesn\'t speak high of anything and everything we vouch for stand for. And praising Hitler! that\'s heights! Hitler and his acts only deserve condemnation. He is the root cause for all the present troubles. If he wasn\'t there, there wouldn\'t have been world war or the subsequent bi-polar world (US-USSR) and now the uni-polar world (US all the way). Guys, have you seen the photographs of innocent kids (there is this one boy, who lost all his family, both of his hands and has more than 60% 3rd degree burns - WHY? WHY? WHY?) killed and wounded in Iraq.
I sincerely feel that none of our governments (be it the Congress or the BJP) have done enough in Kashmir. The biggest mistake they haven\'t solved the problem when they had the chance and secondly allowed the situation to deterioriate. And, they have spent billions of rupees for BSF and armed forces stationed in there. BUT, if only they spent one-tenth of it on developmental schemes, it definitely would have been a different story. Don\'t give people or the youth a reason to join the militia - make them busy with education/sports and other activities. It is still true - An Ideal Man\'s Brain is Devil\'s Workshop. And, its high time we learn to become PRO-ACTIVE and not REACTIVE. All these empty rhetoric our Fernandes, Yashwant Sinha and Advani indulge only aggravate the gravity of the situation. We badly need tactful and machiavellian (or our Chankya) type of leaders. They provide good justification for whatever Pakistan does. My response might draw a lot of flak but I request sincerely, Think Again!

[ananth]

ideal should be spelt idLE !! makes a big difference.

[Samata]

Unfortunately, crushing the terrorist camps in Pakistan, assuming that we can indeed do so, will not solve the problem. The Indian Government is also one of the opressors of the people in the valley. Our own army sponsors a substantial percentage of the terrorists in the name of counter terrorism. Who will save the civilians from the state sponsored terrorism?

[:)))))]

Hitler?! THOr, what do you want India to become? Another Nazi Germany!? Where millions were gassed and killed and tortured in concentration camps? Hey, come on man, let\'s not get so very excited that we make a hell hole of our country! Let\'s not make it worse, yaar.

[Anil]

Ananth

Thanks for correcting that. I meant IDLE. I was really agitated when typing the whole thing so inadvertantly some typos might have crept in.