Can you Help India Shine

[the1bourne]

I am right now in US of A, and though I want to come back, many people here tell me that this is what all new comers say. It seems once you get used to this place you will not leave it, I want to prove them wrong. Do you think I can?



Well anyway the matter I want to talk about is.....



Is INDIA ever going to be a developed country? Who can HELP India Shine?



Lets look at the contenders (we already know and have seen them in a lot of movies )



1.Politicians - The "VOICE of the people", we as the single most largest democracy in the world have politicians who could be placed in the ELITE group.......of criminals...... they have a criminal record which would make any hard core criminal proud. And no one seems to care much about. Some of them even after being caught on tape hold governement posts, does anyone care?? What happened to the voice of the people??



2.Civil servants - The toughest exam in the country is the I.A.S examination (well some say CAT is the toughest) India's most intelligent and astute guys get through it and are given the post to serve the country but most of who end up serving themselves. Even the few honorable ones are not allowed to perform their duties and some start of their training by accepting "Gifts" in appreciation for their work which eventually becomes their sole motivation. But there is still hope with a few honest and sincere men still there to serve the people if only they are allowed.



3. Professionals (Doctors, Engineers.....India has a lot of these but the quality of these professionals is decreasing as education is business now. But we still have some of the brightest minds in the world)



4."Intellects"- You will find many of these guys sitting in TV studios discussing how India can be made better, they criticise the government policies and policy makers. But we don't see many actually doing something more than just talk to make things better.



5. THE NORMAL DESI - The Normal Indian who has a job, is married, couple of kids and everything is fine for him and all his cares and worries are limited to his work place and house. And is not concerned about all the stuff he reads and hears about thigns going on in our country, as long as he is not directly affected. After all its not his job to ask questions and make sure the government performs its duties, we have the politicians for it. hmmmm just another Normal Desi.



6. "YOUTH"-"The Next Generation" , most of whom end up in USA or if they are unlucky they stay back in India. So as I see our life circle is....... STUDY.WORK.GET SETTLED. MARRY. KIDS.....is this all there is to life? We have just one life, can't we do something out of the box?



Everyone in all the above groups has the power to make a difference in their own way, but we all know this power is not being properly used. The good thing is we still have few honest, sincere and hard working people in all the above groups. Do you think you can be one of them?

Lets not work just for our personal benefits, do something for your country and your countrymen. When you see something that is not right don't just pass by, STOP try to make it right, even if you can't atleast try. Our country needs us. We have the power to make India better, use it. After all you have only one life, and its not how long you live that matters but how you live and what you leave behind that's important.



So, Can you HELP India Shine??



If you think this article is good enough, forward this to your friends. Lets make India Shine.



JAIHIND

[Habitual Perfectionist]

I am right now in US of A, and though I want to come back, many people here tell me that this is what all new comers say. It seems once you get used to this place you will not leave it, I want to prove them wrong. Do you think I can?

Well anyway the matter I want to talk about is.....

Is INDIA ever going to be a developed country? Who can HELP India Shine?

Lets look at the contenders (we already know and have seen them in a lot of movies )

1.Politicians - The "VOICE of the people", we as the single most largest democracy in the world have politicians who could be placed in the ELITE group.......of criminals...... they have a criminal record which would make any hard core criminal proud. And no one seems to care much about. Some of them even after being caught on tape hold governement posts, does anyone care?? What happened to the voice of the people??

2.Civil servants - The toughest exam in the country is the I.A.S examination (well some say CAT is the toughest) India's most intelligent and astute guys get through it and are given the post to serve the country but most of who end up serving themselves. Even the few honorable ones are not allowed to perform their duties and some start of their training by accepting "Gifts" in appreciation for their work which eventually becomes their sole motivation. But there is still hope with a few honest and sincere men still there to serve the people if only they are allowed.

3. Professionals (Doctors, Engineers.....India has a lot of these but the quality of these professionals is decreasing as education is business now. But we still have some of the brightest minds in the world)

4."Intellects"- You will find many of these guys sitting in TV studios discussing how India can be made better, they criticise the government policies and policy makers. But we don't see many actually doing something more than just talk to make things better.

5. THE NORMAL DESI - The Normal Indian who has a job, is married, couple of kids and everything is fine for him and all his cares and worries are limited to his work place and house. And is not concerned about all the stuff he reads and hears about thigns going on in our country, as long as he is not directly affected. After all its not his job to ask questions and make sure the government performs its duties, we have the politicians for it. hmmmm just another Normal Desi.

6. "YOUTH"-"The Next Generation" , most of whom end up in USA or if they are unlucky they stay back in India. So as I see our life circle is....... STUDY.WORK.GET SETTLED. MARRY. KIDS.....is this all there is to life? We have just one life, can't we do something out of the box?

Everyone in all the above groups has the power to make a difference in their own way, but we all know this power is not being properly used. The good thing is we still have few honest, sincere and hard working people in all the above groups. Do you think you can be one of them?
Lets not work just for our personal benefits, do something for your country and your countrymen. When you see something that is not right don't just pass by, STOP try to make it right, even if you can't atleast try. Our country needs us. We have the power to make India better, use it. After all you have only one life, and its not how long you live that matters but how you live and what you leave behind that's important.

So, Can you HELP India Shine??

If you think this article is good enough, forward this to your friends. Lets make India Shine.

JAIHIND

DQ should see this. This is what I meant when I said that our own people propogate this sorry image of India abroad. I don't understand why....just why do people look at only the bad side? Let's have a look at the good side too.



Politicians : We also have a crop of politicians who would be the envy of any government. We don't have war-mongers who will simply invade other countries at the drop of a hat. Although misplaced a lot of times in the recent past, India's foreign policy has always been sincere.



Civil Servants : Come hither bourne and you'll also see a dedicated pack of civil servants, police officers etc. who stop at nothing to get the right things done. For every corrupt officer, we also have a Khairnar, an S.R. Rao, a Harsh Mander and a Jayanthi Ravi.



Professionals : India is home to one of the best stables of medicos and engineers. Today, India is a healthcare destination for people from some of the most developed countries. Add to that, our ancient sciences like Ayurveda & Unani are being tapped to the right potential nowadays. The example of Kerala is paramount here. Talking of engineering & Technology, we have PSU's like ONGC, the defense pack (BEL, DRDO etc.) and private companies like L&T, Reliance, Tatas etc. who are second to none in terms of human resources. And finally, India has shown the owrld that its no pushover. Exactly the reasons why countries like the G-7 are eating their egos and rushing to India for so many things. We're no more the pushovers we used to be 15-20 years ago.



Intellectuals : They just don't sit behind desks in studios. They also govern policy. Given the corrupt nature of a lot of people in the country, agencies like SEBI & RBI have done a commendable job in managing affairs. We have a lot of NGO's that are helping the poor empower themselves. Ever heard of people like Shanta Sinha, Ela Bhatt, Dr. Bindeshwar Pathak? I don't think so.



The "Normal" desi (why desi?) : The normal Indian is much more informed today. The discussions on this board itself will give you a good idea. Take some pains reading them before coming to conclusions based on heresay. And this board is just a drop in the ocean. We all know what's happening around us. And it'll change soon.



Youth : What's so great about the youth in other places my friend? We're just like any other youth. We too dream. We too aspire high. As for the cycle you've mentioned....here's my take.



Study : Yes. Don't you think getting a good education takes you a step closer towards building a better nation?



Work : Its described in the Bhagwat Gita as a form of yoga. KARMAYOGA to be precise. Don't know what's so mundane about it from your POV. Every great thing is built around work...isn't it?



Marry : Don't you want to?



Kids : Provide a sound future for your kids. Give them good education. Inculcate good values in them. Another step close to the shine.



Finally...what is it that you're calling out of the box? F***ing sheep like Adonis? (Sorry Adonis if you read this...was just kidding...no hard feelings).



And before you start ranting on me not having read your full post and all, let me tell you that I have. And waxing eloquent about our ills and giving the good part just a passing mention in the form of a single inconspicuous sentence is not the right way to make your country shine.



If you yourself want to contribute to a shining India, you could dispel a lot of false notions among people about India being just black all around. Next time, make things a little more impartial.

[Happy Indian]

I am right now in US of A, and though I want to come back, many people here tell me that this is what all new comers say. It seems once you get used to this place you will not leave it, I want to prove them wrong. Do you think I can?

Well anyway the matter I want to talk about is.....

Is INDIA ever going to be a developed country? Who can HELP India Shine?

Lets look at the contenders (we already know and have seen them in a lot of movies )

1.Politicians - The "VOICE of the people", we as the single most largest democracy in the world have politicians who could be placed in the ELITE group.......of criminals...... they have a criminal record which would make any hard core criminal proud. And no one seems to care much about. Some of them even after being caught on tape hold governement posts, does anyone care?? What happened to the voice of the people??

2.Civil servants - The toughest exam in the country is the I.A.S examination (well some say CAT is the toughest) India's most intelligent and astute guys get through it and are given the post to serve the country but most of who end up serving themselves. Even the few honorable ones are not allowed to perform their duties and some start of their training by accepting "Gifts" in appreciation for their work which eventually becomes their sole motivation. But there is still hope with a few honest and sincere men still there to serve the people if only they are allowed.

3. Professionals (Doctors, Engineers.....India has a lot of these but the quality of these professionals is decreasing as education is business now. But we still have some of the brightest minds in the world)

4."Intellects"- You will find many of these guys sitting in TV studios discussing how India can be made better, they criticise the government policies and policy makers. But we don't see many actually doing something more than just talk to make things better.

5. THE NORMAL DESI - The Normal Indian who has a job, is married, couple of kids and everything is fine for him and all his cares and worries are limited to his work place and house. And is not concerned about all the stuff he reads and hears about thigns going on in our country, as long as he is not directly affected. After all its not his job to ask questions and make sure the government performs its duties, we have the politicians for it. hmmmm just another Normal Desi.

6. "YOUTH"-"The Next Generation" , most of whom end up in USA or if they are unlucky they stay back in India. So as I see our life circle is....... STUDY.WORK.GET SETTLED. MARRY. KIDS.....is this all there is to life? We have just one life, can't we do something out of the box?

Everyone in all the above groups has the power to make a difference in their own way, but we all know this power is not being properly used. The good thing is we still have few honest, sincere and hard working people in all the above groups. Do you think you can be one of them?
Lets not work just for our personal benefits, do something for your country and your countrymen. When you see something that is not right don't just pass by, STOP try to make it right, even if you can't atleast try. Our country needs us. We have the power to make India better, use it. After all you have only one life, and its not how long you live that matters but how you live and what you leave behind that's important.

So, Can you HELP India Shine??

If you think this article is good enough, forward this to your friends. Lets make India Shine.

JAIHIND

DQ should see this. This is what I meant when I said that our own people propogate this sorry image of India abroad. I don't understand why....just why do people look at only the bad side? Let's have a look at the good side too.

There you err my friend.



If you carefully read the1bourne's thread all he is wishing for is a developed nation.



On propogate a sorry Image.



- Thats a misconception that you have, a one of experience does not mean that everybody goes about self bashing my friend.



- And where in the1bourne's thread do you see propogation of a sorry image. Most of his / her thread is a propogation of facts.

Moreover your reply too depict the real picture.



- If you listen to most of the NRIs time and again you will hear the same story. Comming from such a great country all they get to hear in friendly banter to racist slurs is

"Under developed nation"

"Third world country"

"Impoverished nation"

"Land of the Monkeys"

"Undernourished masses"

"Beggars, theifs"

"Communal Violence"

"Mass murders"

"Violators of Human Rights"

"The illeitreate"



Whereas we back in India consider ourselves as



"The most brainiest"

"The entrepreuners"

"The Secular nation"

"The friendliest people"

"The land of riches"

"The hardest working lot"



Now lets us do a self check.



When some one calls us a



"Under developed nation" --- We know we are a developing nation, and only time will tell where we stand. Less corruption we will attain this status

much quicker then now.



We can continue evaluating, but lets see what you get back with this read ?

[CtrlAltDel]

one more akhada for the HP-DQ wrestling match

[Just Another Human]

one more akhada for the HP-DQ wrestling match

LOL

[ilayaraja_fan]

This is what I meant when I said that our own people propogate this sorry image of India abroad. .

do u think only Indians who r living abroad have such opinions about India



After all, they were here sometime back too and would have formed such opinions when they were in India



IMHO, it depends on the maturity and conscience of an individual as to how he/she perceives situations in India but not on whether the individual is living in India or abroad

[Habitual Perfectionist]

There you err my friend.

If you carefully read the1bourne's thread all he is wishing for is a developed nation.

I am right now in US of A, and though I want to come back, many people here tell me that this is what all new comers say.

I did read it more carefully than you did it buddy. This is how he began the article. And went on to lament about all the ills plaguing India. My point is that the picture isn't all that bad. There are a few good things too and they are slowly making their presence felt.

On propogate a sorry Image.

- Thats a misconception that you have, a one of experience does not mean that everybody goes about self bashing my friend.

Its not a one off experience DQ. I've seen it time and again. Infact, it has happened time and again on this forum itself. You don't need to look any further.

- And where in the1bourne's thread do you see propogation of a sorry image. Most of his / her thread is a propogation of facts. Moreover your reply too depict the real picture.

Yes. That's exactly what I want to say. If you've followed the1bourne's posts carefully, you'll see that all he/she does it post articles on India's sorry state. and all he talks about is that India doesn't have it within itself to rid itself of the ills plaguing it.

You yourself agree with what I had to write on the various "contenders" the1bourne had addressed. Now, after starting 3 threads on the same subject, including one where he calls for putting up classifieds for "Men of Honour", he doesn't come back to check the replies on them and neither is there a single mention of even one good thing about the country. This is what I meant by propogating a sorry picture of our country. Common people all around the world get to hear this...and only this...and hence form such low opinions about India.

- If you listen to most of the NRIs time and again you will hear the same story. Comming from such a great country all they get to hear in friendly banter to racist slurs is
"Under developed nation"
"Third world country"
"Impoverished nation"
"Land of the Monkeys"
"Undernourished masses"
"Beggars, theifs"
"Communal Violence"
"Mass murders"
"Violators of Human Rights"
"The illeitreate"

Whereas we back in India consider ourselves as

"The most brainiest"
"The entrepreuners"
"The Secular nation"
"The friendliest people"
"The land of riches"
"The hardest working lot"


Now lets us do a self check.

Not really. Both these views are extreme in nature. Be a little more moderate and you'll see that although we do have a lot of ills pervading the society like population, illiteracy, corruption, communal hatred etc., we're also a very young country (I'm talking about post independence from Brit rule). We've achieved a lot more than a lot of other countries in a very short time. And the world acknowledges the superior capabilities of Indians.

We also have a small but extremely dedicated and highly motivated pack of leaders amongst ourselves who'll surely take India to great heights in the coming few decades.

That was a reality check.

When some one calls us a

"Under developed nation" --- We know we are a developing nation, and only time will tell where we stand. Less corruption we will attain this status
much quicker then now.

Its not just eradication of corruption that would weed out all obstacles in the way of our progress. But yes, it surely will be a big step towards that goal.

We can continue evaluating, but lets see what you get back with this read ?

I hope I've given you enough to continue this discussion further.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

This is what I meant when I said that our own people propogate this sorry image of India abroad. .

do u think only Indians who r living abroad have such opinions about India

After all, they were here sometime back too and would have formed such opinions when they were in India

IMHO, it depends on the maturity and conscience of an individual as to how he/she perceives situations in India but not on whether the individual is living in India or abroad

Exactly I_F...I understand that you're saying the same thing as me but in different words. My point is that why speak only bad? Let some good about the country also reach the ears of others around the world.



For that matter....even in India. Everyone who cribs about the bad should also remember atleast one good point about the country while doing so. And if possible, also think as to how they themselves can contribute to the betterment of the society around them.

[salamehyderabad]

This is what I meant when I said that our own people propogate this sorry image of India abroad. .

do u think only Indians who r living abroad have such opinions about India

After all, they were here sometime back too and would have formed such opinions when they were in India

IMHO, it depends on the maturity and conscience of an individual as to how he/she perceives situations in India but not on whether the individual is living in India or abroad

Exactly I_F...I understand that you're saying the same thing as me but in different words. My point is that why speak only bad? Let some good about the country also reach the ears of others around the world.

For that matter....even in India. Everyone who cribs about the bad should also remember atleast one good point about the country while doing so. And if possible, also think as to how they themselves can contribute to the betterment of the society around them.

Folks,

There is gud and bad in every country. Ppl have not explored other countries as we Indians did. India exported 13 bn $ worth s/w for the yr '03.

What do the youth in the US of A do. Party all nite (taking majority)? How many of them opt to be a doctor or an Engineer in the United state. We at least have student organizations in India. Where in US did you find student organizations which stand up for the students. How many foreign nationals do you find in parts of India except for in the tourist spots.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Totally off-topic:

IMO, the student organisations are more of a pin in ass than any use. All they do is intimidate faculty and boy cott classes even for minor problems. The student leaders are no different from a local goon... infact most student organization leaders are budding goons or politicians, mostly the later.

Compare it to US where there are no student organizations (actually every university has a student body), this is mainly because each student is equivalent to student organization and any problem he has, he will deal with the dean directly and will get justice. The student body mostly concerns itself about the fee and other facilities for students.

I think US system is better and it being free from political influence is a bonus.



On topic:



I think that we have a lot to learn from the west and to an extent from east asian countries too. I donot deny the fact that we have a rich culture and heritage which the west doesnt have, but thats the PAST. Present day, the west has more to teach us than to learn from us and we should learn every postivie aspect of western life until we, as a society, have the best of both worlds.

[salamehyderabad]

Totally off-topic:
IMO, the student organisations are more of a pin in ass than any use. All they do is intimidate faculty and boy cott classes even for minor problems. The student leaders are no different from a local goon... infact most student organization leaders are budding goons or politicians, mostly the later.
Compare it to US where there are no student organizations (actually every university has a student body), this is mainly because each student is equivalent to student organization and any problem he has, he will deal with the dean directly and will get justice. The student body mostly concerns itself about the fee and other facilities for students.
I think US system is better and it being free from political influence is a bonus.

Yea u rite ... but the form of govt the administration etc influence such kinda organizations. There aint no colleges in here where they are affiliated to the Universities. They all run independently funded by the state mostly. We have a whole of college that are affiliated to the Universtiy . Take for example the Degree collages in Hyderabad. 90% of them are affiliated to O.U.

On topic:

I think that we have a lot to learn from the west and to an extent from east asian countries too. I donot deny the fact that we have a rich culture and heritage which the west doesnt have, but thats the PAST. Present day, the west has more to teach us than to learn from us and we should learn every postivie aspect of western life until we, as a society, have the best of both worlds.[/quote]





But rather are the other way. Pick up the worst ones.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

On topic:

I think that we have a lot to learn from the west and to an extent from east asian countries too. I donot deny the fact that we have a rich culture and heritage which the west doesnt have, but thats the PAST. Present day, the west has more to teach us than to learn from us and we should learn every postivie aspect of western life until we, as a society, have the best of both worlds.

I don't think we're talking learning from the west here, MM. Bourne made a point that there are a lot of contenders to take India to a shining spot and that they're all inadequate for the job. My question to him, and to everyone else around, is whether you all really think that whatever we have in terms of human resources is inadequate to take India to a better future. I personally don't think so.



Talking of learning from the west, I don't think cultures and heritage die. They're just forgotten. It's just a matter of realising what we were; what we are and how we can regain our past glory. We have been great traders, great soldiers, great thinkers and great technologists too. Sad that personal ego took prominence over the larger interests of the land and we came to the present state that we are in. All we need to do is to think in the right direction - whether whatever we're doing is going to be beneficial to the country or not. Just this simple line of thought, if followed by everyone, can take us to great heights.



And pray tell me, what do we lack in our great heritage that we have to learn from the west?

[Mayavi Morpheus]

The west is rich. We are not.

US had a GDP and percapita income as that on todays India back in 1900 (ignoring the fact that we have 10 times more population than US of 1900). Before 1900, the United states went through the same phase of corruption, internal turbulances and war just like todays India. Now look at where US is. Between 1920 and 1950 the lifestyle of americans changed drastically and it became worlds superpower. Dont we have anything to learn from US?

We can go on invent our own ways, stick to the mixed economy and subsidy bullshit, stick with the same 1850 victorian era laws and it would take us anotheh 200 years just to be where taiwan or south korea is today. We follow the west, liberalize our economy, change the justice and law enforcement system, make it citizen friendly and basically follow the west and we would be there in 50 years. I am not saying that we should ape the west. No sir, that aint gonna work, cos at the fundamental level Indians are vastly different from Americans. But apart from that, the problems we face today are no different from the problems US or any other developed country have faced and overcome during their developmental curve. We can just use the same solutions, MKIze them and apply to Indian condictions. 80% of time it will work.

We can learn a great deal from american society too. Would write about it later.

[DQ]

On topic:

I think that we have a lot to learn from the west and to an extent from east asian countries too. I donot deny the fact that we have a rich culture and heritage which the west doesnt have, but thats the PAST. Present day, the west has more to teach us than to learn from us and we should learn every postivie aspect of western life until we, as a society, have the best of both worlds.

I don't think we're talking learning from the west here, MM. Bourne made a point that there are a lot of contenders to take India to a shining spot and that they're all inadequate for the job. My question to him, and to everyone else around, is whether you all really think that whatever we have in terms of human resources is inadequate to take India to a better future. I personally don't think so.

Talking of learning from the west, I don't think cultures and heritage die. They're just forgotten. It's just a matter of realising what we were; what we are and how we can regain our past glory. We have been great traders, great soldiers, great thinkers and great technologists too. Sad that personal ego took prominence over the larger interests of the land and we came to the present state that we are in. All we need to do is to think in the right direction - whether whatever we're doing is going to be beneficial to the country or not. Just this simple line of thought, if followed by everyone, can take us to great heights.

And pray tell me, what do we lack in our great heritage that we have to learn from the west?

I WOULD HAVE CONTINUED TO ARGUE / DISCUSS HP but,



I am quitting the boards, please mail me at elmyi@yahoo.com.au to inform of another (unbiased) board where we can discuss / argue, reason for quitting.



WHY WAS MY REPLY TO LETTER TO MINISTER REMOVED?

IN WATCH OUT MEN WILL HAVE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR RIGHTS

IS THIS NOT THE UMPTEENTH TIME THE MODS ARE BEING BIASED.

IS IT CASTE / COLOUR / RELEGION THATS PLAYING UP IN DELIBRATELY REMOVING MY POSTS.

THATS IT THIS CALLS FOR MY QUITTING THE BOARDS, AS THE MODS HAVE PROVED THAT THEY DO NOT WANT ME ANY MORE ON THESE BOARDS, BY SELECTIVELY REMOVING MY POSTS TIME AND AGAIN.

[the1bourne]

Heyy guys,



I may have highlighted the negative points in our society more than the positives, but that is not to give out this sorry image about our country though that is the image most people here have about our country.



I came here just 5 months ago, and I am still as much an Indian as I have ever been all my life. I am not trying spread this bad image about India but trying to improve its image by sending this wake up call to the people who think alls well as long as things are doing fine. I would love to praise our country which it deserves , but you don't need a doctor as long as u r fine, in the same way though one can write a lot about the great thigns in our country we need to focus on our negative points too and work to make it better.



I would say who cares what kind of image you have, all that matters is what you really are. After all reputation is what people think about you and character is what you really are. And what we really are we know very well we have the best talent in almost every field in the world, yet we are labelled a developing country. We still have people trying to step foot in US. Someone once told me his dream, he wanted to have Indian Visa Consulate in Washington D.C issuing visas for americans trying to get into India to make a life for themselves. I don't think that is impossible, maybe not soon but possible.



And I definitely don't think the human resource we have is inadequate, no I would say we r not using this valuable human resource efficiently. We can be a developed country soon if we can get more people in power using their power responsibly.



And about the life cycle I talked about, I didn't say we shouldnt marry or have kids or stop studying . Infact one of the best things you can do for your country to raise good citizens. If those "good citizens" you raise do is raise some more "good citizens" then if all the people who are working would start working more sincerely and honestly we won't need these articles I guess. But then how would one become a good citizen?



Can anyone give me a clear definition of a good citizen? (I am really not sure)

Cos I am not sure, is he the guy who does everyhting according to the book? Is he someone who stands up for justice and serves the society? Is he a combination of both?





And about the discussion going on about learning from the west, I would say yes there are things we can learn from the west. I heard people mentioning about the american youth and all they do is party and throw away their lives. Well the same american youth once rebelled against the govenment for sending troups to vietnam and caused a major change in the american society. We need such youth, we don't need ABVP. SFI who might among themselves and who lack unity. They respect human life, they treat the patient first and then think about the money. But then I don't like the way they leave their parents at 18 and its weird to live with your parents after 18 and u r a freak if u r a virgin after 16.



I would like to talk about what other countries can learn from us as well. But later.........



the1bourne

[Habitual Perfectionist]

The west is rich. We are not.
US had a GDP and percapita income as that on todays India back in 1900 (ignoring the fact that we have 10 times more population than US of 1900). Before 1900, the United states went through the same phase of corruption, internal turbulances and war just like todays India. Now look at where US is. Between 1920 and 1950 the lifestyle of americans changed drastically and it became worlds superpower. Dont we have anything to learn from US?
We can go on invent our own ways, stick to the mixed economy and subsidy bullshit, stick with the same 1850 victorian era laws and it would take us anotheh 200 years just to be where taiwan or south korea is today. We follow the west, liberalize our economy, change the justice and law enforcement system, make it citizen friendly and basically follow the west and we would be there in 50 years. I am not saying that we should ape the west. No sir, that aint gonna work, cos at the fundamental level Indians are vastly different from Americans. But apart from that, the problems we face today are no different from the problems US or any other developed country have faced and overcome during their developmental curve. We can just use the same solutions, MKIze them and apply to Indian condictions. 80% of time it will work.
We can learn a great deal from american society too. Would write about it later.

While saying this, you're forgetting that the US is a 250 year old country whereas, we're just close to 60 years into our rebuilding.



And it was only after the 15th century that social ills actually started coming into our society. We were much better off before that. I fail to understand just this point - If then, then why not now?



As for liberalising the economy, Chanakya had written about it before Christ was born. So, let's not talk about learning that from the west. I repear...its just a matter of realising our roots and standing true to them.



Bourne....I get your point and appreciate your response. I'm sorry if any of my statements were personally hurting to you. Its just my ire against the "diaspora" in general.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Ok, lets do it again from the beginning.

Everyone in all the above groups has the power to make a difference in their own way, but we all know this power is not being properly used. The good thing is we still have few honest, sincere and hard working people in all the above groups. Do you think you can be one of them?

You have talked about Indian people in different professions, thats fine.
How are these people different from rest of the world. Whats the basic difference? And if they are any different, whats the reason?
What do you expect from a normal desi or a normal 'youth' other than what you've outlined above?
If India were a developed country, do you expect these people to behave any differently from how they are now?
Does the different behaviour/thought process come from India being a developed nation or vice-versa?

Lets not work just for our personal benefits, do something for your country and your countrymen

Is working for personal benefits not same as working for the benefit of country (provided, ofcourse, the person is in India)?

[Habitual Perfectionist]

Guess the questions were aimed at bourne...but I'll take the liberty of answering.

Ok, lets do it again from the beginning.

Everyone in all the above groups has the power to make a difference in their own way, but we all know this power is not being properly used. The good thing is we still have few honest, sincere and hard working people in all the above groups. Do you think you can be one of them?

You have talked about Indian people in different professions, thats fine.
How are these people different from rest of the world. Whats the basic difference? And if they are any different, whats the reason?
What do you expect from a normal desi or a normal 'youth' other than what you've outlined above?
If India were a developed country, do you expect these people to behave any differently from how they are now?
Does the different behaviour/thought process come from India being a developed nation or vice-versa?

These people are no different from other people like them from other countries except for their culture, their upbringing, their food habits, their language, their aims and ideals in life and their behaviour. Finally, all the people in question are humans.

What he expects from a normal Indian is a resolve to make the country a better place to live in.

And if India were a developed country, it would be the people's choice to keep working the way they've worked to bring it to the status of a developed nation; thus making it even better..

OR

Become complacent like our forefathers did and fall into some new imperialistic scheme ala the East India Company.

And..the behaviour/thought process doesn't come from India being developing/developed but from the values pervading the society.

Lets not work just for our personal benefits, do something for your country and your countrymen

Is working for personal benefits not same as working for the benefit of country (provided, ofcourse, the person is in India)?

Not always. Anti-socials would be working for their personal benefits but none of their actions do good to the country. The right way is to work towards your personal benefits and at the same time making sure that those personal benefits do not conflict with the overall good of the country.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

While saying this, you're forgetting that the US is a 250 year old country whereas, we're just close to 60 years into our rebuilding.

No, I didnt forget that. Infact thats one of the reason for my indifference to topics which criticize our slow development. All I am saying is that it took the US 250 years to be what it is today, we can be there in 100 years if we can learn from their experience and improve upon it.

And it was only after the 15th century that social ills actually started coming into our society. We were much better off before that. I fail to understand just this point - If then, then why not now?

It doesnt matter when the ills started coming into our society. What matters is that present day Indian society, outside same caste communities, is far from perfect. Thanks to the British Raj, we learnt to look down upon our own fellow citizens. Now you can say that we were not like this before and all citizens were equal, they may very well have been, not anymore. The west sets a very good example here which we can follow, sans the xenaphobia and racism - thats the imrpovement we oughta make.

As for liberalising the economy, Chanakya had written about it before Christ was born. So, let's not talk about learning that from the west. I repear...its just a matter of realising our roots and standing true to them.

and zero was invented by Indians. Whats the point? It doesnt matter who thought of free market economics first. Who's implemented it matters the most and its the west. For a free India of 1947, the quickets route to development was socialism and mixed economy. Thats what everyone thought back then and it worked fine in the initial stages till the world started realising the fallacies of such a policy. They moved on and its time for us to move on.

Bourne....I get your point and appreciate your response. I'm sorry if any of my statements were personally hurting to you. Its just my ire against the "diaspora" in generaloutside small communities.

India needs the disapora, the diaspora needs India. There's nothing anyone can do about it. Its not wrong to move to the greener pasteurs, its a survuval game afterall. Patriotism doesnt feed you. But I agree that its wrong to criticize India once they are settled in a foreign land.

You may have formed your opinions after observing the immigrants of the 60's70's, 80's, but the modern day Indian in a foreign land is way different from the one who immigrated before the economic reforms of 1991. Back in the quota regime, no one saw any future in India and that is reflected in what they say about India.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

These people are no different from other people like them from other countries except for their culture, their upbringing, their food habits, their language, their aims and ideals in life and their behaviour. Finally, all the people in question are humans.

Exactly! yet, some countries are developed, some are developing and some are third world countries. Why? They have a system in place which doesnt interfere with the normal day to day life of a person and have an atmosphere conducive to personal development and money making.

What he expects from a normal Indian is a resolve to make the country a better place to live in.

The only time when a normal Indian can make a difference is by voting. Vote a proper non-leftist government into power, and the market forces will take care of the rest.

And..the behaviour/thought process doesn't come from India being developing/developed but from the values pervading the society.

Developed country = High percapita income.

When you have lot of money, you are free to do anything.

A common cop on a road side accepts bribe only because he cant run his house with the meager 1500 he gets per month. he only gets 1500 because the government doesnt have enough funds to increase salaries. With good economy, per capita increases. You can give the same cop 15,000 for the same work and reduce corruption by 50% and double the efficiency. Higher moral values? may be.



My point is that, all the social ills we have, all the corruption etc are a result of India being a poor country. India is a poor country because we were looted by brits for 250 years and the looting continued even after the brits left. The babu's in govt inherited the same looting mentality from the brits and so did the police and justice system. The poor econmic policies ensured that we dont have money to enforce judicial reforms. The moral values of the country took a beating. People became corrupt and greedy. The only way it can be changed is by becoming prosperous once again, like we were before the 18th century. China is doing it, we can too.

[the1bourne]

You have talked about Indian people in different professions, thats fine.

How are these people different from rest of the world. Whats the basic difference? And if they



are any different, whats the reason?



Not many countries have such great heritage as ours (america is land of immigrants), not many



countries has so many talented, clever people but its also a fact that not all of these people



get to properly used their talents in our country.



And also that no other country has such a huge population (except for china), and that implies



the number of people who are victims to the society (corruption, caste, religious problems) . I



don't say they don't exist in other countries, they do in similar forms or different, but I am



not so worried about other countries. I am worried about India once I am done with that I will



think about other countries.







What do you expect from a normal desi or a normal 'youth' other than what you've outlined above?



I would like a normal desi to be more involved with the government and not just vote for someone



based on the party. We need the people to be more united and just end their link to the society



with the reading of the paper, watching news.

They have to give something to the society apart from just taxes, maybe start teaching under



priviliged kids in their locality by teaching them. Everyone has his own expertise and though not



all may have the luxury of spending some time for the society's betterment they should atleast



try. Everyone has their own problems, and we try our best to get rid of them and we shoudl try to



help those who can't help themselves. We need to improve the literacy rate, bring people into the



light educate them about social evils and especially in the rural areas.





If India were a developed country, do you expect these people to behave any differently from how



they are now?Does the different behaviour/thought process come from India being a developed



nation or vice-versa?



Well if India were developed atleast I wouldn't expect to see such a large number of people being



part of scum of the society group( some of the politicians,etc are right now in this group). So



if a country is developed I would expect the ratio of more responsible citizens(esp those holding



important positions) to be greater than that of a developing country. Some countries are sitll



developing or under developed not due to the human factor but due to other reasons, India I would



say is sitll a developing country mostly due to the human factor. We don't lack the human



resources what we lack is proper utilisation of this human resource.







Quote:

Lets not work just for our personal benefits, do something for your country and your countrymen



Is working for personal benefits not same as working for the benefit of country (provided,



ofcourse, the person is in India)?



Well I don't think so, if I were to work for my personal benefits staying in India I would take up a government job. Aren't most of our politicians, leaders, officials putting personal benefits



before country's benefits. Everyone wants to live a comfortable life and I don't say no to that but i'd say stop being get greedy and think about all those whom you can help wiht all the extra money u have. Our country would be in a much better position if the people who earn so much money that 10 generations of their family can live luxuriously can donate some money for the common man.

[akhilis2cool]

Looks like we are taking abt. 2 points here



1. Can India develop on it own, what all needs to b changed for that happening.



2. Shd. India Learn from the west.



If india has to become a develpped nation by 2020 then a whole lot of changes are neede. but the fact is that the changes are already on the way. We are at a critical stage of economic development. If the govt. sustains its developmental efforts without worrying abt the distractors, then theres nothing stopping us. As far as issues like corruption in the govt. are concerned they will take care of themselves once the govt. makes it clear that the development will benefit all. Even then there will b some bone heads....well thats where the citizens can come in and make sure he/she is taken care of.



Liberalisation is a good thing. But the point is that we can open up our doors for everyone inspite of they themselves having restrictions on imports (they,boleto US and other developed nations). Our foreign policy cannot ignore our own strengths and weeknesses. The US will always make sure its interest is protected. Thats what we shd. also do.



Abotu learning from the US.

Yeh we do have a lot to learn but more in terms of whatnot to do in order to become a developed nation, we have to make sure we do not make the same mistakes that they have made. Agreed, US has the highest percapita income and all that stuff. But increasing the incomes of ppl. is not what development is all abt. What abt. the damage done in the process of development to the natural resources of the nation and the world. We all know US ahs the max Share in the pollution of the planet. there are several others by products of development that we end up ignoring coz we only want to see the greener side of things.



I do not, by ne stretch of imagination, mean that development is bad. BUt the point is that we have something called "late comers advantage", and we need to make the best use of it to make sure that the evils that wld. come in with a capitalistic regime are kept to a minimum.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

While saying this, you're forgetting that the US is a 250 year old country whereas, we're just close to 60 years into our rebuilding.

No, I didnt forget that. Infact thats one of the reason for my indifference to topics which criticize our slow development. All I am saying is that it took the US 250 years to be what it is today, we can be there in 100 years if we can learn from their experience and improve upon it.

And it was only after the 15th century that social ills actually started coming into our society. We were much better off before that. I fail to understand just this point - If then, then why not now?

It doesnt matter when the ills started coming into our society. What matters is that present day Indian society, outside same caste communities, is far from perfect. Thanks to the British Raj, we learnt to look down upon our own fellow citizens. Now you can say that we were not like this before and all citizens were equal, they may very well have been, not anymore. The west sets a very good example here which we can follow, sans the xenaphobia and racism - thats the imrpovement we oughta make.

As for liberalising the economy, Chanakya had written about it before Christ was born. So, let's not talk about learning that from the west. I repear...its just a matter of realising our roots and standing true to them.

and zero was invented by Indians. Whats the point? It doesnt matter who thought of free market economics first. Who's implemented it matters the most and its the west. For a free India of 1947, the quickets route to development was socialism and mixed economy. Thats what everyone thought back then and it worked fine in the initial stages till the world started realising the fallacies of such a policy. They moved on and its time for us to move on.

Well...I see that we're both looking at the same objective...but we're seeing it through different perspectives. You call it learning from the west. I call it learning from our own roots. And its not that they implemented it first. We implemented it much before them but lost our way somewhere in between. Hence my point that we need to realise our roots and start implementing again, the same policies, habits and way of life that once made India the prosperous land that it was.

Bourne....I get your point and appreciate your response. I'm sorry if any of my statements were personally hurting to you. Its just my ire against the "diaspora" in general

India needs the disapora, the diaspora needs India. There's nothing anyone can do about it. Its not wrong to move to the greener pasteurs, its a survuval game afterall. Patriotism doesnt feed you. But I agree that its wrong to criticize India once they are settled in a foreign land.
You may have formed your opinions after observing the immigrants of the 60's70's, 80's, but the modern day Indian in a foreign land is way different from the one who immigrated before the economic reforms of 1991. Back in the quota regime, no one saw any future in India and that is reflected in what they say about India.

Maybe. I'll surely look at the new age immigrant with a clean slate and reanalyse my opinion.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

They have to give something to the society apart from just taxes, maybe start teaching under priviliged kids in their locality by teaching them. Everyone has his own expertise and though not all may have the luxury of spending some time for the society's betterment they should atleast try. Everyone has their own problems, and we try our best to get rid of them and we shoudl try to help those who can't help themselves.

Noble thoughts. But, if ordinary citizens has to help other underprivilaged folks, why have the government and why pay taxes? Is it not the duty of the government to help these underprivilaged folks?

What difference are you or I gonna make by educating a orphan or donating money to a charity organization which educates such people? Will it make a huge difference in a country of billion people and quarter billion poor?

Does this arrangment work for the whole country?

How many people need to spend their time and effort educating the people around us?

How long will it take for the country to develop?

Do you know that in India we have one NGO for every 500 people? Yes, one NGO for every 500 people and what did we achieve? Nada.

This helping thy neighbour set-up may work on a small scale, but it aint gonna usher a change on a national level. Besides, where individuals are involved, individual agendas come into play.

I am not saying that we should not help other people. Help if you can, but its not a long term fix.



Get the govt. to bring a law which makes education upto 10th compulsory for every citizen, then you dont have to spend your time to educate other 'underprivilaged' folks. How can this be implemented? By having enough schools, good infrastructure, well paid teachers and higher educational standards. This would require money, lot of money. State should collect taxes from people. But how will people pay taxes when they dont earn enough? Create employment oppurtunities. How? Get rid of the socialist era regulation/quota system. Change the judicial system and labor laws. Let investment flow in from other countries. Encourage competition. Develop infrastructure which creates a favourable atmosphere for foreign investment, which not only earns you taxes but also creates employment. Get rid of the loss making public sector units.

In essence, let the market forces dictate the economy and not try to regulate anything. Initially the poor will become more poor and rich will become more rich, but eventually people will prosper.

Look at chile during pinochet, germany immediately after the WWII, South korea after the korean war, taiwan, UK and US... they all did it and they developed. Korea was much poorer than what India was in the 1950's and look at where they are now. How did they do it?



Our economy still depends on agriculture which depends on monsoon. A bad monsoon and you have poverty rate going up. What can people like you and me do about it? Nothing. What can the government do? A lot! It can provide alternative employment oppurtunities by developing infrastructure in and around small towns. Show the farmers alternative crops which need less water and bring more profits (I dunno if its feasible or not, just an option). This would prevent the poor farm labors from migrating to big cities like bombay and Hyderabad thus reducing poverty in urban areas. These are just few examples, and if the government has the will India can develop in 30 years.



Now you may ask, whats role should the people play in this? Just vote?

Not necessarily. We can be more vigilant, pressurize the government to implement reforms and if they dont, vote them out. Atleast we should create awareness among people and stop them from voting communits to power.



Ps: I didnt proof read the post. Just wrote whatever came to my mind, so pardon ze mistakes.

[Ceasar]

I have recently joined this group and been following the discussions. All the Ideas and discussions are great and I want to bring my observations on to the table here.



We, Indians (including me) donot have the habit of taking criticisms or feedback in a positive way and always get discouraged and raged. If we take the comments, criticisims and statements in a positive way and look in a perspective to develop ourselves we can make a whole lot different India with a positive outlook in no time.