Fathers?

[Ramya]

This is something I saw on NDTV y-day: It's about this family of a father,mother and their 2 daughters,both of them minors.The father had sex with his daughters,and the daughters bore him 4 sons.All the neighbours knew about this,but nobody did nothing about it,neither did the mother.The second daughter(she went on air y-day saying that she thought that fathers having sex with daughters is 'the' natural thing!) finally went on to complain to the police and the man is under custody now.

The thing I've been thinking about is:why do these kind of things happen?Can lust drive somebody into something so ghastly?Which sane father would ever do this with his own kids?So,if it is considered that this person is insane,then should he be punishable by law and what kind of punishment should he be given?

[JustaLittleUnwell]

This story is really bizzarre. The info I come across is that such incestuous abuse (child abuse by family / known persons) is far more widespread than we would like to believe. Sex education in schools should be made compulsory - The culture police be damned. The society (i.e. family members of children) should also be made aware of the dangers of such a phenomenon, so that it is easy to identify and prevent occurances of such abuse.



Children are sent to work, children beg and perform stunts on the streets (these days every traffic signal in Hyd is a venue for such stunt shows involving children, and I wonder what the law enforcers are doing, and how this is being allowed to proliferate), children are used to satisfy the sexual desires of adults....... looks like in our 'Shining India', the children's rights have somehow taken a back seat.

[Ramya]

It sent down shivers down my spine,but than do you really think that sex education is the option,I mean it would be accesible to only those who visit schools,these two kids here didnot(obviously).

The sad part is even well educated,well bred people seem to indulge in this.

[JustaLittleUnwell]

Agreed that sex education if introduced would be accessible only to school going children, but it would serve to bring such issues out of the closet and into the open. It's something like AIDS-awareness, the more the people know about it, the more careful they would be about prevention. And, just like AIDS awareness campaigns, similar ones could be held in places like slums / ghettos so as to reach children and their families who do not have access to a formal sex education.



And education is not the be all and end all solution. There are rotten apples even among the educated / well-bred, but atleast the society would know how to identify and isolate them, if we are more open and aware on these matters, instead of talking about the glorious Indian values (which dont seem to exist anyway) and shutting our eyes and ears like the famous monkey dolls.

[azazel]

There's nuthin i hate more than sex offenders, esp. pedophiles..

they're the scum of the earth..

i feel the solution lies not just in education, even the punishments should be harsh and regular, i mean these days even murderers get off easily..

the whole system is rotten to the core..

sex-education in schools is a better option, but it can't be taught to young kids.. and they r the ones at a higher-risk from these degenerates and often all this happens at home or from people they know n trust which is the worst part, the horrifying story above will tell u that..

its just a shame man..

to me, its gotto be harsher punishments..

[Imran]

Yah !! this incident is really shocking , this happens due to lack of proper education !

.... wat u all hav said is that "sex education will set the things right" but i dunn support it will make the things more worse , coz v must be aware whts happening in the Western countries, Minor gurlz under 14yrs are getting pregnant,...

Goverment shud come out wid proper system to stop these inhuman things .

[Ramya]

I feel that sex education will only be partly useful.

What I want to understand is,perhaps somebody studying psychology could tell me this,why do people indulge in such acts,would they be called healthy in mind?Because unlike many other crimes,there is no material gain here,and if a person IS mentally unwell,how can he be punishable under law(An ill person is not penalised by the courts until he is well)

[Asli_badmash]

There is loads of literature on this topic and its effects on an individual mostly girls. Boys also go through this; but they are a minority.



As far as I can understand; this crime is all about asserting control. The perpetrator, mostly the parent or the guardian wants to assert control and the ultimate form of control as far as woman are concerened is their sexual preference. The perpetrator is sick... no question about it. But the lack of education prevents people from taking action against it. They either beat the criminal up or just banish him from society. And he moves to a new place to continue his sickness. But this doesnt stop the second individual living in the next galli(lane) to think twice before he does anything lewd.



How many crimes go unpunished in India. We all know of or have heard of some uncle or some relative who misuses the trust to violate kids and their families. The sad part is in educated families this is a hush-hush topic. This is not just a phenomenon in uneducated people, educated people also do this. Some of my friends who I know personally(girls) have told me the horror of it.



There are laws, but hardly anybody is brought to justice.



What I say is be mindfull of who your children are with and listen to the kids. And talk to them.



~Badmash~

[azazel]

What I say is be mindfull of who your children are with and listen to the kids. And talk to them.
~Badmash~

best advice that can be given to anyone but u forgot, the topic started with the horrific incident of a father abusin his daughter! harsher punishments man..the only possible cure IMHO! hang one sonofabitch , rest will think twice..

[Fiddler]

harsher punishments man..the only possible cure IMHO! hang one sonofabitch , rest will think twice..

I'm with you man. I've always been of the opinion that the best form of punishment for a sex-offender is castration. Not only will it stop him from doing it again, it'll also be a source of constant psychological torture throughout his miserable life. And, finally, it'll serve as an incredibly powerful disincentive for the rest of society's sickos! Off with his.. um.. head!

[azazel]

i second that buddy..

not only will that take care of the basic problem, but it will prevent others from committing these crimes..

also, i feel proper help n councelling should be provided for the victims, coz in many cases, the offenders themselves turn out to be victims of abuse..n sadly they loose the moral grounding over the issue.

[asli_badmash]

I am not so sure about hanging someone. I dont think capital punishment works all the time. Yes it acts as a deterance, but I dont think it curbs all illelagl activity. There is alwayas going to be that one person who is going to test the limits of our system and there are loop holes. I dont know what the absolute answer is ! I think prevention is better than prosecution. Yes we all beleive in expending justice but practically looking at it... its expensive and with Indias population not even worth it.



Maybe Education and empowerment of women folk will help!



azazel: I was talking about kids in general. Kids say things not necesarily the way we understand them but they do express abuse they are going through. The father abusing the kids is extreme; maybe the mom could have done something, comes back to women, education and empowerment.

[Five7Jaan]

i feel the solution lies not just in education, even the punishments should be harsh and regular, i mean these days even murderers get off easily..
the whole system is rotten to the core..

you sing true, amen brother.



As for education and empowerment of women, it looks good on paper but this time, the practicality of it escapes altogether.



I am pro-death penalty, let's hang the sob.

[asli_badmash]

I see a lynch mob... "Hang the SOB" ? People screaming for blood. I dont see why ?



The guy is sick in his head. You dont hang people who are sick in their head. The best thing to do is put him away for a long time.



Punishment is given to a person who realizes the he is being hanged for his actions. Do you think this guy knows what he is doing. If he is then.. hang him !



I dont condone what he did.. all I am saying is people who live in alternate realities dont have the same rules or morals as normal people. Do you think hanging one deranged person will fix all the rest. I dont think so...



Do you see now why I say hanging this bloke isnt the answer ?



~Badmash~

[azazel]

I see a lynch mob... "Hang the SOB" ? People screaming for blood. I dont see why ?

The guy is sick in his head. You dont hang people who are sick in their head. The best thing to do is put him away for a long time.

I just conveyed my view of it man.. i dun see ne point as to how 'locking him/her away' is gonna do a job! besides, whats the use? do u think these ppl will get cured or somethin? i dont think so.. rather than keeping them as some sort of criminal 'specimen' , get rid of him once n for all..

Punishment is given to a person who realizes the he is being hanged for his actions. Do you think this guy knows what he is doing. If he is then.. hang him !
I dont condone what he did.. all I am saying is people who live in alternate realities dont have the same rules or morals as normal people. Do you think hanging one deranged person will fix all the rest. I dont think so...
Do you see now why I say hanging this bloke isnt the answer ?
~Badmash~

if ur talkin abt punishment, then isnt lockin someone up also bad??

if i start thinkin abt deranged ppl's rules n motives..ill have to let vry serial killer out!!

i obvoiusly dun think hang-one n u cure the rest, but lemme tell u not vry1 who commits these offences is deranged as such.. u can never know what kind of a person can do such disgraceful crimes..

i dun see y we should let these ppl live on n waste resources on em, when we have so much poverty esp. in a country like ours..

U should see the sentences America hands over to all these criminals.. 40 years, 60 years in jail..n even high, i mean is that stupid or what??

take Russia, one bullet in the back of the head nad that sonofabitch aint gonna bother ne1 else ever!

[Ramya]

The guy is sick in his head. You dont hang people who are sick in their head. The best thing to do is put him away for a long time. Punishment is given to a person who realizes the he is being hanged for his actions. ~Badmash~

That's exactly what I was trying to say.One thing why capital punishment wouldn't help is that nobody attempting to tread on these lines would ever ever think that "somebody else was hanged because of this,so let me not do this",and unless people think that way-things can't really improve.



There was a lot of talk about women empowerment,but I feel what is needed is adult education here,not just women.It's men too who are involved here.

[asli_badmash]

I agree about the education part with Ramya. People have to be educated... The society needs to change its outlook. I think it is happening in India and I am glad Hyderabad is playing its part.



I suggested Women education because "If you get the women to come to school the men will come by themselves"... Isnt it the whole club, pub, disco rule. Men go to places where there are babes. The definition of babes might differ.



~Badmash~

[azazel]

That's exactly what I was trying to say.One thing why capital punishment wouldn't help is that nobody attempting to tread on these lines would ever ever think that "somebody else was hanged because of this,so let me not do this",and unless people think that way-things can't really improve.

What else do u suggest?

lockin the offender up n hopin that he wont ever get out n commit the crime again??

dun think so.. n if someone else treads the same path, send him on his way to hell too! The world would certainly be a better place with these suckers not around..

[hokie]

In my opinion, you are all looking at one link in a chain of events and discussing about how to cure the link.



all this talk about how people should be sex-educated and how they should be castrated and beaheaded does not serve the purpose. because there is an instict at work here. human instinct at its worst.



Rather than sex education, the children of india should be taught about human values, compassion, and most important of all they should be taught that just because you are bigger, stronger, or more powerful than others you do not have the right to abuse and exploit them. (You see this everywhere, in schools where the big boys beat up the small ones, children hitting animals with stones...and in this case, a man abusing a girl)



And as far as the subject of the discussion is concerned.. both the problem and solution lies with people's thought-process.



Why did the father do this dastardly act? because he thought he can get away with it. He thought the victim is not going to complain. The proof: he didnt do it after the daughter complained to the police. Not only in this case, but most people indulge in sexual abuse because they think there is a more than a chance that the victim doesnt report the crime.

This is prevalant in India because of the general mentality of the people. they dont leave the victim alone. They make life hell for her. This should change. People should be reminded that victim had no part in the crime. That whoever came out seeking justice should be treated with respect. The victim should not feel ashamed and guilty.





About the father: you need not behead, castrate or put him in prison. There is a more harsh punishment for him. Make him feel ashamed and guilty. Treat him like an outcast. He doesnt have a place in civilized society. take away his job, his belongigns, whatever he possesses and make him understand that what he did is not human.



...." n if someone else treads the same path, send him on his way to hell too! The world would certainly be a better place with these suckers not around ".... If only the fear of punishment could make people refrain from wrongdoing. Yeah, I agree that it is one of the purposes that punishment is expected to serve. But then what are loopholes in the law for? Those who indulge in these acts, dont worry about the punsihment because they think they can find a way out. So, may be you can punish the offender, but that does not stop others. It is supposed to, but then it is not working.





Well.. maybe sex education is a solution...I donno if it is going to work or not. Because it wasnt put in practice. Someone was saying, "Sex education in schools should be made compulsory - The culture police be damned". Maybe it is true. But do you think it is possible? Can you just say the culture police be damned and go about doing what you want, in a country like India?? I dont think so.



Instead, increase the awareness about importance of human values. I know it involves a lot of time and effort- Some of you may have ruled it out as 'impossible' and 'ineffective', but then, if you are talking about bringing a change in the mindset of people, attack the way people think.



Communion and compassion rather than 'Survival of the fittest' should be the way of life.

[Ramya]

Rather than sex education, the children of india should be taught about human values, compassion, and most important of all they should be taught that just because you are bigger, stronger, or more powerful than others you do not have the right to abuse and exploit them.

So true hokie,I agree with you.But don't you think this man's mother didn't teach him to be loving,etc,... it's all in the head boss, you never know how it works. (Strangely,this man here doesn't even seem to repent!)



I agree with the outcasting part too,but just wonder how very 'possible' is that, atleast in India,there are people who always support the 'oh so wrong' side of things.

[hokie]

yeah i'm sure his mother has taught him about loving others.. but i dont think anyone in India stresses the need for compassion towards others. The keyword is 'stress'. Everyone talks about compassion and the need for it. but how many people really see to it that their children do care about these values?





"....how very 'possible' is that, atleast in India,there are people who always support the 'oh so wrong' side of things..."



Guess what? Thats exactly what I was talking about- the need for a change in the mindset of people. Like I said, "...people should be reminded that victim had no part in the crime. That whoever came out seeking justice should be treated with respect. The victim should not feel ashamed and guilty..." It is the people who need to change. The thought-process.



So, you must now be wondering how you can bring about this drastic a change in India?? These are the people who have been seeking pleasure maiming others since their birth. Will they change just because a hokie told them to??? No way.



But then they are not the future. they are the past.. think about children. We need to teach them that its not funny to hurt others.. its sadism. And it lies in our hands because we have to (and can) mould them as we want them to be.



Let us start small.. you start it in your home. Maybe with your children (or your siblings) Go a li'l step ahead, talk with NGOs. Chart out a plan to introduce these things in schools. Suggest that they include these values in their agenda. There are people who think there is a need for change, let us tell them what kind of a change we want to bring in India.. and then let us see what they want to do about it.



Baby Steps sure work out.. 'belief' is the mantra. Teach one kid that inflicting pain on others (or animals) isnt fun and you have begun the struggle for making the world a better place to live in.

[hokie]

... it's all in the head boss, you never know how it works. (Strangely,this man here doesn't even seem to repent!)

Yup, its all in the head.. but then you sure know how it works- always.



For instance, I know for sure that i'm not going to take advantage of a girl's innocence (or helplessness) and abuse her. Thats my head and I know how its gonna work. If someone thinks that they cant control their mind.. its their problem and they need to find a solution for it. Maybe seek help. or get out of that situation.



Let me relate an incident for you: There was this guy who was working with me. He got hold of a counterfeit $50 note. He could have easily used it and there would be no problem at all (In this particular situation. He could have easily replaced it with a good note in the cash box and no one could have foud out where the fake note came from). He was in two minds. He wanted to do it badly. Then again, he knew it is wrong. In a split second, he tore the note. That was the end of it. He cant change it even if he wanted to.

So.. when in two minds about whether to be good or bad.. make an irreversable decision (but towards the good) and then you can come out your problem. You are not going to regret your decision.



And as far as repentence is concerned.. i dont believe in it. Its going to do no good. Repentence neither corrects our mistakes nor stops others from doing the same mistakes.

Ofcourse, thats my opinion and there may be people who think differently about this.

[azazel]

Dude,

ur talking abt 'Change' here..

i hope u realize that in a country such as ours where narrow-mindedness is the order of the day, bringing about a change is like expecting Laloo Yadav to become the dean of Oxford! OK, stupid anologies aside, the fact still remains that even if strategic efforts are made in this regard, the time taken will be enormous.. Change is a fact of life, but changing the stubborn mind-sets is almost impossible.. and the Question still remains.. what to do with guys like those who were the point of this topic?? the heinous offenders who'll perpetrate a crime that'll make most people sick!!

what should we do with them? I still say harsher punishment is the best bet. they can get out thru the loop-holes of the system but atleast, they will fear what could be in stor for them.. N u said that fear of punishment wont act as a deterrent. Well, Saudi Arabia is a country with one of the lowest crime rates in the world n it is due to the harsh but right punishment to the criminals.. I often wonder where the sympathy comes for the criminal who has been convicted for the crimes and the punishment seems to be too harsh, whereas ppl tend to forget the victims

and their horrifying ordeal

[arzoo]

[quote="azazel].. I often wonder where the sympathy comes for the criminal who has been convicted for the crimes and the punishment seems to be too harsh, whereas ppl tend to forget the victims

and their horrifying ordeal[/quote]



It is called misplaced judgement, pal, a mental disease. The more twisted and gross crime perpetrated, the more of compassion it creates in such mindsets.



Oh, poor little thing he must have had been! his childhood must have been really screwed up ! whatelse will he do other than allow it to manifest in such form of expression other than the ways he has chosen ?





oh, how dare the authorities hang such a man who albeit killed his 2 year old daughter after raping her and ..( whatever nonsense he would have done to this little one) (2 wrongs do not make one right..etal), But he is innocent. He did all this because he did not have a good childhood. let us show compassion and make him a right person. the best place of his stay could be anywhere other than my surrounds, but he should be treated with humane dignity. he deserves it...I am compassionate, I am loving..



There is something called consequences,*****



and this bast*** goes and does the same thing again and again and again until.. God knows when !

[hokie]

"...hope u realize that in a country such as ours where narrow-mindedness is the order of the day, bringing about a change is like expecting Laloo Yadav to become the dean of Oxford!...."

My answer: "....Will they change just because a hokie told them to??? No way. But then they are not the future. they are the past.. think about children..."

Who is talking about change in the 'stubborn mind-sets'. I was talking about future generations. If you recall, I said, "...they are the past.. think about children.....you start it in your home. Maybe with your children or your siblings...."



"what to do with guys like those.."



I'd rather worry about the disease rather than the symptom. Because, if you cure the symptom, another arises and it may not be the same as the previous one.



Not that i approve of those punishments, but for the sake of argument..

"...Well, Saudi Arabia is a country with one of the lowest crime rates in the world n it is due to the harsh but right punishment to the criminals...."

Replace the lashes and the cutting of the hands that are the punishments in Saudi Arabia with 'hanging till death' punishments.. Do you think it will still have those low crime figures?? I dont think so.

And just imagine trying to bring about those harsh punishments in India.. does that sound plausible?



".... I often wonder where the sympathy comes for the criminal who has been convicted for the crimes and the punishment seems to be too harsh..."



If you are talking about causing the cruelest pain for the most heinous crime.. whats the difference between you and the criminal?? When a person is jailed for a crime, it is not as a punishment but to give him an opportunity to change himself and at the same time making sure that he doesnt commit any other crime. Then again, putting someone in jail is not providing him with free food and shelter. Prisoners work hard for their food. Make him work harder.



And finally...



"...the fact still remains that even if strategic efforts are made in this regard, the time taken will be enormous.."



how much time did India take to get its independence... 90 years. How much time Indian women took to gain social respect? Centuries.

Here, you are talking about making this world a better place to live in. Dont be impatient my friend.



If you think you are going to put in effort only if you can enjoy the results.. then....



Remember the story? 'An old man planting a mango sapling.. and the king thinks he is a fool...'